Green Hydrogen

[mspohr]

The Hydrogen Boom Will Provide A $200B Boost To Wind And Solar Energy | OilPrice.com

Three months ago, the European Union has set out its new hydrogen strategy as part of its goal to achieve carbon neutrality for all its industries by 2050.

In a big win for the hydrogen sector, the EU outlined an extremely ambitious target to build out at least 40 gigawatts of electrolyzers within its borders by 2030, or 160x the current global capacity of 250MW. The EU also plans to support the development of another 40 gigawatts of green hydrogen in nearby countries that can export to the region by the same date.

But here's the kicker: The regional bloc intends to have 6GW of green hydrogen produced from renewable energy up and running by 2024.

That's the case because green hydrogen is currently the most expensive hydrogen source, with grey hydrogen produced from fossil fuels via Steam Methane Reforming (SMR) and coal gasification the cheapest. But the EU does not seem bothered with costs at the moment, with its main goal being to become carbon neutral by 2050.

Or maybe it just wants to gain a first-mover advantage in a market that will surely enjoy some of the biggest growth of any energy sector in the coming decades.

So, what does the EU green hydrogen goal mean for the renewables sector?

According to BNP Paribas Asset Management's Lewis, developing these green hydrogen commitments will require ~$400B, fully half of which will go to developing new renewable energy capacity, thus increasing the growth opportunity of a sector that's already red-hot.

 

[SageBrush]

Three months ago, the European Union has set out its new hydrogen strategy as part of its goal to achieve carbon neutrality for all its industries by 2050.

I have doubts about the technical merits of hydrogen, and whether it will compete against other bio-fuels. I also suspect that HVDC is a better use of funds to solve intermittency problems.

But whatever. Certainly vastly better than subsidizing diesel

 

[mspohr]

I have doubts about the technical merits of hydrogen, and whether it will compete against other bio-fuels. I also suspect that HVDC is a better use of funds to solve intermittency problems.

But whatever. Certainly vastly better than subsidizing diesel

I think they are hoping for cheap hydrolyzers and cheap electricity. Might happen.

 

[iPlug]

Posted over in another forum from another member:

Tesla Powerwall Rival Seeks to Bring Hydrogen Into Your Home
-$24,620 USD
-40 kWh usable capacity
-only 5 kW (charge and discharge) real power, max continuous - so this wont be enough to run AC in most homes
-reported installs to begin in June 2021 in Australia
-don't see efficiency numbers
-they claim 30 year life but same 10 year warranty as Powerwall
-uses low pressure metal hydride for storage
-unclear what maintenance issues there will be, at a minimum requires a water supply with purification unit

The article noted:

...many household solar arrays may not generate enough electricity to run the system efficiently...​

So if efficiency is really lowsy, like <50%, also wont make sense to do this in lieu of batteries at this time. Another reason why hydrogen, if it does ultimately make sense, will start at larger scale first. Still interesting to see where this goes.


Lavo – Changing the way people live with energy

 

[SageBrush]

Tesla Powerwall Rival Seeks to Bring Hydrogen Into Your Home

Clever marketing.

I read it as slow, inefficient and expensive,
but otherwise pretty cool ;-)

 

[mspohr]

The Green Hydrogen Problem That No One Is Talking About | OilPrice.com

Perhaps the cost of water supply, storage, and purification is negligible compared with other costs that need to be addressed first. Yet it is an actual cost that should be added to the total when estimating how far the technology of producing hydrogen from renewable electricity has progressed and how viable it has become.

For now, experts appear to be unanimous that it is not viable - not without significant government support.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The Green Hydrogen Problem That No One Is Talking About | OilPrice.com

Perhaps the cost of water supply, storage, and purification is negligible compared with other costs that need to be addressed first. Yet it is an actual cost that should be added to the total when estimating how far the technology of producing hydrogen from renewable electricity has progressed and how viable it has become.

For now, experts appear to be unanimous that it is not viable - not without significant government support.

That's really a bit of a stupid article.

The EU is supporting generation of hydrogen from renewable electricity because they (and basically everybody) thinks there will be cheap excess[/i[ renewable electricity available for use. (I just doubt whether they'll be willing to pay as much as EV owners.)

The article then costs the purification of water using current electricity prices, when the whole point of doing it is that the price will be lower, especially with the obvious co-location of hydrogen production.

Also, guess where a lot of refineries are located: yes, sea coasts.

 

[SageBrush]

The EU is supporting generation of hydrogen from renewable electricity because they (and basically everybody) thinks there will be cheap excess[/i[ renewable electricity available for use. (I just doubt whether they'll be willing to pay as much as EV owners.)

Agreed, but there is another issue that is not discussed by the green hydrogen dreamers: A factory that only runs when clean electricity is in excess makes for an expensive factory. Imagine a factory that operates some three hours a day on average.

 

[miimura]

Agreed, but there is another issue that is not discussed by the green hydrogen dreamers: A factory that only runs when clean electricity is in excess makes for an expensive factory. Imagine a factory that operates some three hours a day on average.

That's the thing that gets me. Electrolysis is already a capital intensive activity and you're going to leave the utilization up to the whims of the electricity price to determine how much you're going to run the system? That is not a good recipe for a profit making endeavor. It sounds like you would have to wait until there is a predictable and substantial number of hours per month and per year when the electricity price goes negative so that you can balance that with other hours that has a low positive price so that you have enough operating hours to justify the capital expense.

 

[mspohr]

That's the thing that gets me. Electrolysis is already a capital intensive activity and you're going to leave the utilization up to the whims of the electricity price to determine how much you're going to run the system? That is not a good recipe for a profit making endeavor. It sounds like you would have to wait until there is a predictable and substantial number of hours per month and per year when the electricity price goes negative so that you can balance that with other hours that has a low positive price so that you have enough operating hours to justify the capital expense.

Is electrolysis really very capital intensive? It's basically hooking up wires to electrodes with perhaps some kind of catalyst. That's your fixed costs.
Nothing compared to a NG combined cycle plant or a nuclear plant.

 

[iPlug]

Scenario #1 assumes that the electrolyzer is connected to the larger electric grid and can benefit from high capacity factors (but must pay associated grid fees). Scenario #2 assumes that the electrolyzer is directly connected to a renewable electricity generator (and thus does not need to pay grid fees, but the electrolyzer can only be operated at the capacity factor of the renewable electricity generator). Scenario #3 assumes that the electrolyzer is only operated on electricity that would otherwise be curtailed. Our primary results are summarized below; the minimum prices shown here correspond with the most favorable locations within the EU and US.

Grid Connected
• The median price of H2 (in the US, 2020-2050) will decrease from $8.81/kg to $5.77/kg; the minimum price decreases from $6.06/kg to $4.15/kg.
• The median price of H2 (in the EU, 2020-2050) will decrease from $13.11/kg to $7.69/kg; the mini- mum price decreases from $4.83/kg to $3.21/kg.

Direct Connection
• The median price of H2 (in the US, 2020-2050) will decrease from $10.61/kg to $5.97/kg; the mini- mum price decreases from $4.56/kg to $2.44/kg.
• The median price of H2 (in the EU, 2020-2050) will decrease from $19.23/kg to $10.02/kg; the minimum price decreases from $4.06/kg to $2.23/kg.

Curtailed Electricity
• The median price of H2 (in the US, 2020-2050) will decrease from $11.02/kg to $5.92/kg; the mini- mum price decreases from $6.10/kg to $4.75/kg.
• The median price of H2 (in the EU, 2020-2050) will decrease from $10.85/kg to $6.08/kg; the mini- mum price decreases from $5.97/kg to $4.67/kg.
​

The hydrogen price (when produced from renewable electricity generators) calculated here is highly dependent on geographic location with significantly cheaper production prices in some favorable localities.

​

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/final_icct2020_assessment_of _hydrogen_production_costs v2.pdf

Unsure if this would get California close to the direct connection scenario of only $2.44/kg. If a public utility it could be exempt from grid fees? If an investor owned/private utility, not sure what wholesale grid rates they would get which would technically put them in the curtailed electricity scenario, but practically direct connection scenario prices?

 

[miimura]

Is electrolysis really very capital intensive? It's basically hooking up wires to electrodes with perhaps some kind of catalyst. That's your fixed costs.
Nothing compared to a NG combined cycle plant or a nuclear plant.

According to a ITM Power presentation from 2019, the 2020 price for an electrolyzer is €1,016/kW. The price going forward to 2030 is asymptotic to €420/kW.
Another spot in the presentation mentioned a 5MW facility that should produce 2.1 tonne / day. That implies only 420g/kW/day, presumably at 100% utilization. That comes to €2,418/kg/day, purely in capital cost for the electrolyzer, at 1MW scale facility.

https://www.itm-power.com/images/In...esearch/AGM_Presentation_October_2019_web.pdf

So, upgrading a hydrogen fueling station that currently takes hydrogen delivery to one that electrolyzes hydrogen on-site, sized for 100kg/day would cost about $300,000.

 

[mspohr]

Big Oil Is Fueling The Hydrogen Rush

 

[mspohr]

Here's a plan to pump "green hydrogen" into NG pipelines...
1. burn it with the NG (up to 25%)
2. extract the hydrogen from the NG at a destination with a selective membrane to help solve the H2 distribution problem.

California gas blending trial could shift a roadblock for hydrogen cars

 

[Brando]

H2 and O2 is great for rocket motors.
Put a rocket launcher in your backyard.
How about rocket powered Airlines ? dream on.

 

[mspohr]

Powerpaste packs clean hydrogen energy in a safe, convenient gray goop

In Powerpaste form, it's completely stable at temperatures up to 250 °C (482 °F). It carries 10 times the energy of a similar weight in lithium batteries, and substantially more than a 700-bar H2 tank of the same weight. The researchers say vehicles running on a Powerpaste powertrain can expect a range "comparable to – or even greater than – gasoline."

 

[Brando]

Perhaps going to the source: interesting research center - you'll enjoy
Fraunhofer IFAM / English - Fraunhofer IFAM

PS- walking/bikes/other human power options cheaper, better for environment, better for you. Problem? : can you organize life/home/work to fit ?

Hydrogen-powered drives for e-scooters

 

[mspohr]

Plug Power plans $264 million 'green hydrogen' plant

Plug Power plans to build a $264 million plant in Genesee County to produce "green hydrogen" for freight transportation and materials handling equipment.

 

[mspohr]

Hydrogen projects worth $300 billion are dropping green H2 prices fast

A new Hydrogen Council report sheds some light on Hydrogen's rise as a green fuel source. More than 30 countries now have a national H2 strategy and budget in place, and there are 228 projects in the pipeline on both the production and usage sides.

Europe is leading the way, with 126 projects announced to date, followed by Asia with 46, Oceania with 24 and North America with 19. In terms of gigawatt-scale H2 production projects, there are 17 projects planned, with the largest in Europe, Australia, the Middle East and Chile.

 

[mspohr]

Hydrogen is Big Oil’s Last Grand Scam

So, why is the fossil fuel industry trying to convince Covid-19 stimulus capital allocators in governments around the world to fund new hydrogen projects? O&G companies surely understand the major drawbacks of hydrogen for transport and other new energy system uses where it is currently not used. Based on technical and commercial realities, we believe that their messaging on hydrogen should be viewed as disinformation. The hydrogen story pushed by fossil fuel companies is a new chapter in their multi-generational “FUD” campaign to preserve the profitability of extracting and processing hydrocarbons, specifically methane.


More precisely, it is a bait-and-switch scam.


Most people think of green hydrogen when they think of hydrogen. But fossil fuel companies are suggesting that the “hydrogen economy” could get started out running on brown hydrogen, then switch later on to blue hydrogen, and yet later on to green hydrogen, as CCS and finally electrolyzer technology becomes less expensive. Despite the theoretical low CO2 emissions of blue hydrogen (assuming methane leaks are solved, CCS developed and paid for, hydrogen transport infrastructure developed, etc.), they know it will always be cheaper to simply dump the CO2 in the atmosphere than capture it. So, voters and investors might think they’re getting green hydrogen funded by Covid-19 relief packages, but they are actually being propositioned with polluting blue hydrogen, and will most likely end up with more brown hydrogen.