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Green New Deal

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by mspohr, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    The Green New Deal is a real solution (Just like Roosevelt's New Deal was a real solution which worked well until the Reagan years when the neoliberals started dismantling it.).
     
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  2. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    Not sure I agree with the "shifts fixed costs on to people that cannot afford to pay more". I do not think it has to be that way. As you know Tesla Energy now offers a rental program with NO upfront fixed cost and a relatively low monthly cost.

    But, I think if the utility companies were "required" to switch too renewables the cost for solar farms and large battery backup etc. will increase the fixed cost at least in the beginning. But if they used home owner roofs (which is FREE Real Estate) and gave the home owner a reason to "over produce". I.E. Have homeowners over produce and get a fair ROI for their excess energy production would be a good start. I personally know of multiple homeowners that would jump on that option. But we are not doing this. The energy companies are trying to reduce the benefit where they can.
     
  3. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    Democratic playbook: Envy and jealousy are strong emotions. Class Warfare works very well, (especially when combined with the racism label since most rich of course, are racist).

    The top 1% pay roughly 40% of income taxes. We need more wealthy people. Just think of the increase in tax receipts if we could double the number of 1% er's.
     
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  4. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    How many utility rate cases have you observed or participated in? ~70% of the operating cost of a utility are independent of the amount of electricity consumed. If someone uses less electricity because they have solar those costs are shifted to other people.

    I agree we need a larger percentage of the wealth to be owned by a larger percentage of people. Considering the fact that most people with wealth inherit it and most of that income comes from wealth not work.... how do you propose we accomplish that? The most common ways to accumulate wealth is to either have it given to you by your parents or existing wealth... seems like a catch-22.
     
  5. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    You are right that I do not have a lot of inside knowledge so I will simply take your word for it that ~70% are fixed costs but you missed my point. I did not say customers simply use less energy, I said customers produce excess energy to help the
    utilizes transition. Some of the costs you talk about are excess power plants needed to offset peak demand. According to Elon Musk a number of excess power plants could be shutdown if they used batteries to offset peak demand. That ~70% needs to be reduced by spreading energy production to home owners. More of micro grid. If energy companies were to convert to solar all on their own the fix cost will be quite high in the beginning I suspect. Which would then be passed on to customers. I think I read recently that some utility companies are already increasing the fixed cost paid my customers to offset new production cost moving to renewables. Again, "forcing" the utilizes to create incentives for customers to produce energy will require the utilities to offset their fixed cost by shutting down power plants at the same time. Keep in mind as we move to electric cars there will be an increase in demand even if we tried to get more and more customers to install solar.
     
  6. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    .... ok.... if someone BUYS less energy those costs are shifted to other people. Who pays for the batteries? How is this transition funded?

    NEM was great to get solar off the ground but it's unsustainable and you can't 'force' utilities to do something without the cost of that transition migrating to rate payers. If you have NEM it's going to be people that can't afford solar.

    EVs will help but then you run into a drop in funding for roads. Do you tax EVs and slow the transition?
     
  7. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    According to Chris Hogan, this is a common misconception. According to him and a study of 10,000 millionaires, most millionaires (79%) have not received any inheritance at all. Just 16% inherited more than $100,000 and only 3% received an inheritance at or above $1 million. Even if his numbers are off, our economy does produce millionaires, a majority self-made.
     
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  8. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    Some say we need an all out country focus similar to what happened in WWII. People at that time were "ask" to sacrifice. Today, no one wants to sacrifice or even be ask to sacrifice. They only want someone else to sacrifice and/or to pay.

    The transition to electric vehicles will happen no matter what the government does because they are so much better than ICE cars. The only question is how long will it take without government help.

    Regarding how to pay for it. The government needs to subsidize the cost of the transition and the utilities need to reduce fixed cost as we transition to a more distribution method of creating energy. My guess is that if there was a ROI (i.e. customers make money) with installing solar there would be a huge demand for solar panel production and installers with very little effort required by the government.

    New revenue. Many say that the government subsidies big oil. If true then they need to stop. Also, I am not a fan of wars. I agree with Tulsi Gabbard and others that we simply need to stop spending money on them.

    So, is Climate Change a real problem? Is the Green New Deal about redistribution of wealth and very little to do with Climate Change? Call me a pessimist but I except nothing will change anytime soon and we will see if Climate Change is real or just a scam in the years ahead.
     
  9. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    #1609 nwdiver, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    Sacrifice how? For a single Mom making $10/hr living in an apartment paying off school debt. Even if she could afford solar and an EV there's no place to put or charge it. Pay more for electricity and gas so the wealthy can pay less by investing in solar and EVs? She's already living paycheck to paycheck. We're not going to solve the climate crisis by trying to get blood from a stone.

    Plenty of people born on 3rd that claim they hit a triple... 60% of privately held wealth in the US was inherited.
     
  10. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    We already have income level subsides for many things. Energy subsides could easily be applied in this case. But that single Mom making $10/hr and
    paying off school debt. This is a very sad situation that out society "encourages" to happen. Many are told the only way to get ahead to rack up a lot of debt going to college and then they find out there is no job that pays what they were expecting. This needs to stop. And paying for everyone to get a college education is not the answer. If there is not job then it does not matter who pays for the college education. Some people should not go to college and if they do they should know if advance how they will make money on that investment.

    Regarding Apartments. Of course the Apartment owners are the ones that will install solar (if they can). And maybe the government can subsidize that if they pass along the lower energy cost to the tenants. And at the same time they would be required to install charging stations to qualify for the subsidy.

    Going forward anyone that has a car now will be able to afford an electric car. But it will take some time for the used market to fill up like we have now with ICE cars.
     
  11. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    That's ~90% of the GND. The only way any plan is going to work is if it can draw 86% of the funding from the 20% of people that hold 86% of the resources.
     
  12. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    A lot of comments in this thread are saying we need to redistribute wealth (massively). Actually take money from the wealthy and give it to others. Most of these things have NOTHING to do with the Climate Change crisis. Again, I am thinking more and more the GND is all about redistribution of wealth and nothing to do with Climate Change.
     
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  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2020: Drain the Sewer

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    If the fixed costs are built into the consumption then yes, but I like to point out this is not unique to PV; any household that consumes less electricity than the mean is not sharing the burden equally.

    Conservation
    Efficient appliances
    No pool
    No Sauna
    Less than one two children

    ALL of the above people are drags on the utility and the poor people
     
  14. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    ????

    You obviously recognize that we have to get the funding from where funding exists because math. Don't fall into the pathetic denier trap of ignoring the problem because you don't like any of the solutions...

    Yes but solar dials it to 11.
     
  15. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    Read posts by @mspohr as an example.
     
  16. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    How is this different?

     
  17. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    If the GND is about Climate Change we more and more it is not. There are many sources of funds to make the transitions.

    Oil subsidies
    Reduce cost of wars
    ...

    There can be normal business profits from making a transition to solar.

    Again, do we have a Climate Crisis or not? There are some arguments that this whole thing is a huge hoax. It is hard to argue when there is so little investment in solving the problem.
     
  18. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    Are a list of the harmful side-effects of Chemotherapy evidence a cancer is in remission?

    There is literally no valid argument AGW is a 'hoax'.

    1) CO2 levels have risen >40% since humanities fossil fuel addiction started
    2) The burning of Fossil Fuels has emitted more than twice as much CO2 as would be required for that rise
    3) Doubling CO2 will cause a rise in global average temperature of >3C.
     
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  19. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

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    #1619 tes-s, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  20. d21mike

    d21mike Active Member

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    What I meant was that very little is being done. If it is such a real problem then the focus should be much larger than it is. It simply does not feel like a crisis. And when I first heard about GND I though oh this sounds like a real push. Then I find out it is mostly about redistribution of wealth and very little to do with Climate Change in a meaningful way. I.E. We have 12 years then it is too late..... Seems like we heard similar before. The Climate Discussions started many many years ago.

    I have heard this argument multiple times recently. When there is an attack on our country and we need to go to war "no one" says how will we pay for it. We just do it. If we are really in a Climate Crisis with 12 years to go or it is too late we would not be talking about redistribution of wealth we would simply do what is necessary to solve the problem no matter the cost. Obviously not many people believe it is a crisis and the 12 year time frame is not accurate. So if the 12 year time frame is not accurate how much of the rest is not accurate?
     
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