Green New Deal

[nwdiver]

Therefore my conclusion is that it is better for the US economy/GDP to fill a job with a worker that is not remitting money to a different country than one who is - an immigrant, for example.

It's also better for the US economy if Americans buy American but you can't 'coerce' that. The reality is that if you attempt to overly preference a US worker for US jobs over immigrants that job will simply go unfilled and everyone loses. If you try to use protectionist tariffs the economy slows and everyone loses. The reality is a smoothly flowing economy grows the pie faster for everyone. If you try to manipulate it that slows growth. The best solution to helping disadvantaged US workers would be a UBI... which is another way to make money flow.

Anytime money moves it adds value. Pretty much anything that gets money moving is good. That's essentially the how GDP is calculated.

 

[juliusa]

The reality is that if you attempt to overly preference a US worker for US jobs over immigrants that job will simply go unfilled and everyone loses.

Unfilled jobs?? Wait - I thought the "new deal" was because government has to reinvent and control the economy because robots, AI, and eliminating the fossil fuel industry are eliminating jobs, and there will be no jobs for workers to do without the government's help. Did I miss something?

Or are you suggesting people in the country are genetically inferior (mentally and/or physically) to immigrants making them incapable of filling the jobs, and therefore we need immigrants?

Or are you suggesting that businesses in this country are simply not willing to pay wages high enough to attract workers already here, so we should have the government ensure a steady supply of immigrant workers who will work for less?

Surely it can't be that people in this country would simply rather not work and just have government-provided food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, smart phone, and guaranteed income?

The best solution to helping disadvantaged US workers would be a UBI... which is another way to make money flow.

So have the government give money to people and have them spend it instead of the government spending it directly?? Sounds good to me. I call that a tax cut - don't give it to the government in the first place.

 

[nwdiver]

Or are you suggesting people in the country are genetically inferior (mentally and/or physically) to immigrants making them incapable of filling the jobs, and therefore we need immigrants?

No, I'm saying that people in this country are mathematically incapable of supporting their quality of life doing jobs immigrants do for what they get paid. If immigrants didn't do them most of these jobs would either not be done or get automated.

So have the government give money to people and have them spend it instead of the government spending it directly?? Sounds good to me. I call that a tax cut - don't give it to the government in the first place.

Cutting taxes for someone that doesn't pay taxes accomplishes nothing because math. Giving someone a tax cut that is less likely to spend the additional money doesn't help move money => doesn't help grow the economy also because.... math.

The goal is to create additional paths for money to flow and keep it flowing...

 

[SDRick]

. The best solution to helping disadvantaged US workers would be a UBI... which is another way to make money flow.

Why limit UBI to US workers? Since we have a global economy why not give UBI to disadvantaged workers everywhere?

 

[nwdiver]

Why limit UBI to US workers? Since we have a global economy why not give UBI to disadvantaged workers everywhere?

Why does Alaska only pay their UBI to Alaskans?

 

[juliusa]

No, I'm saying that people in this country are mathematically incapable of supporting their quality of life doing jobs immigrants do for what they get paid. If immigrants didn't do them most of these jobs would either not be done or get automated.

The other option is employers pay more. But as long as they have a steady supply of low cost immigrant labor, they never will.

Yes, there will be even more automation as wages rise - a good thing. People will be freed up to do new things. If 40% of workers were still needed on farms to raise the food we eat, where do you think we would be today?

Quality of life? Are you suggesting that someone here gets UBI without working and enjoys a quality of life better than the immigrant that comes here and fills a job?? I do not support that. We are no "better" than other people, and having an immigrant "working class" that works at a lower wage is just one step above slavery.

 

[nwdiver]

Yes, there will be even more automation as wages rise - a good thing. People will be freed up to do new things. If 40% of workers were still needed on farms to raise the food we eat, where do you think we would be today?

Quality of life? Are you suggesting that someone here gets UBI without working and enjoys a quality of life better than the immigrant that comes here and fills a job?? I do not support that. We are no "better" than other people, and having an immigrant "working class" that works at a lower wage is just one step above slavery.

Who is forcing immigrants to work? The ideal outcome is the menial labor is automated. What are these magical tasks you think machines are incapable of doing AND are abundant enough AND high paying enough???? Did you watch 'Humans need not apply'? Where's the flaw in the logic? Do you think better technology 'Makes more better jobs for horses?'. UBI or economic collapse is mathematically inevitable. Pick one.

 

[mspohr]

This Is Not the Sixth Extinction. It’s the First Extermination Event.  |  Peak Oil News and Message Boards

We are in the midst of the First Extermination Event, the process by which capital has pushed the Earth to the brink of the Necrocene, the age of the new necrotic death.

For some 500 years, capitalism’s logic of eco-genocidal accumulation has presided over both the physical eradication of human and non-human life and the cultural eradication of the languages, traditions and collective knowledge that constitute life’s diversity

The fundamental importance of the search for cheap nature and unpaid labor to historical capitalist development has been well explored by scholars. It was not the industrial revolution and its production of the “doubly free” wage laborer, but racialized enslavement, mass witch-hunts, and destruction of Indigenous peoples and ecologies that produced the conditions for capital to thrive

As its monstrous appetite begins to consume the people who previously benefited from its machinations, capital must seek to confuse, turn incoherent, become conspiratorial, point toward ethno-cultural “regeneration” through violence, and catabolically eat its body piece by piece in order to survive.

 

[mspohr]

Why limit UBI to US workers? Since we have a global economy why not give UBI to disadvantaged workers everywhere?

The US government is responsible for US residents so that is probably why US residents should receive priority. However, the US does give a small amount of development aid to other countries.

 

[juliusa]

UBI or economic collapse is mathematically inevitable. Pick one.

False choice, as you must know. At least for the next several generations. If those spouting this stuff actually believed it, the first thing would be to stop immigration and build a much more substantial wall on both borders - the US has a declining population (excluding immigration) and is well positioned to support the current (declining) population in that scenario. Of course, the reality is we don't have enough workers and rely upon immigration to fill the need. And as you have so often pointed out, the more immigrants that come, the more our economy grows needing more workers.

40% of the labor force away from farming. This is no big deal. We have been transitioning to technology automation since the computer was invented and the first primitive robot appeared on the factory floor. This will continue.

Fossil fuels? The number of coal miners in the US peaked at close to 900,000 100 years ago. About 50,000 actual miners remain, and a little over 100,000 total employed in mining. We have 3.7% unemployment - no problem absorbing the rest.

 

[nwdiver]

False choice, as you must know. At least for the next several generations. If those spouting this stuff actually believed it, the first thing would be to stop immigration and build a much more substantial wall on both borders

LOL! That's not how math works. If an immigrant is performing a job that either would have not been performed or would have been performed by a machine that person is adding a consumer to the economy and reducing unemployment. Immigrants are not the cause of unemployment that's a myth perpetuated by ignorant bigots. It's a ratio of workers to consumers the will cause the problem. Immigration 'helps' the ratio.

So you agree it's inevitable but will take longer. Did you think self-driving cars would be as far as they are today 20 years ago? I didn't see this 10 years ago.

Unemployment only includes people actively looking for work. Labor force participation is the number of people working at it's at its lowest level since the end of the Vietnam War (I don't believe this number includes Military either). Unemployment also doesn't include people that are 'underemployed'.

 

[SDRick]

Immigrants are not the cause of unemployment that's a myth perpetuated by ignorant bigots. It's a ratio of workers to consumers the will cause the problem. Immigration 'helps' the ratio.

Let's say you are a newscaster. Would the addition of a large number of immigrant newscasters (of any color) raise or lower wages and unemployment of newscasters?

Let's say that self driving is perfected and Uber drivers, taxi drivers and truck drivers become unemployed. How does further immigration of drivers help the unemployment ratio? I guess fortunately these unemployed folks are still consumers, but unfortunately they are consumers without a job.

 

[nwdiver]

Let's say you are a newscaster. Would the addition of a large number of immigrant newscasters (of any color) raise or lower wages and unemployment of newscasters?

Let's say that self driving is perfected and Uber drivers, taxi drivers and truck drivers become unemployed. How does further immigration of drivers help the unemployment ratio? I guess fortunately these unemployed folks are still consumers, but unfortunately they are consumers without a job.

You're missing the point. Most immigrants are performing jobs that would have either gone vacant or been automated. Under those conditions they're adding consumers to the economy.

If Josue wasn't here to mow Johns lawn for $20 he could be more likely to buy a Husqvarna robo-mower for $1500 than pay Eric $50 to mow it... Paying Josue creates a consumer. Buying a robot-mower less so. In a few years when the robot-mowers are $400 even Josues rate will seem high so it's only delaying the inevitable...

As immigrants become settled and more affluent there are even more consumers. It's a ratio. Having more people isn't a problem. Needing more consumers to support fewer jobs is.

 

[SDRick]

So I guess we are pretty much in alignment to what I set up thread about immigration. Immigration is adjusted to the ever-changing needs of the country. What would you add or change or delete to what I said...

Immigration (non-asylum) should not be static but rather dependent on the ever-changing needs of the country. As unemployment goes up the need for more workers and immigrants goes down. As open jobs go unfilled, immigration numbers should be increased.

In either scenario, immigration should be legal and no skipping ahead of the line illegally. Penalties for both lawbreaking immigrants and employers.

 

[nwdiver]

So I guess we are pretty much in alignment to what I set up thread about immigration. Immigration is adjusted to the ever-changing needs of the country. What would you add or change or delete to what I said...

Immigration (non-asylum) should not be static but rather dependent on the ever-changing needs of the country. As unemployment goes up the need for more workers and immigrants goes down. As open jobs go unfilled, immigration numbers should be increased.

In either scenario, immigration should be legal and no skipping ahead of the line illegally. Penalties for both lawbreaking immigrants and employers.

The gap between the low wage workers needed vs available is already so wide it's irrelevant. More immigrants aren't going to take jobs from Americans. The only thing they're going to do is slightly delay automation. Is your goal to accelerate automation? What's your solution to automation? How do we keep the consumer base from eroding?

Immigrants purchased goods and rented a place to live creating more consumers in the community. Robot-Mowers and Blueberry harvesting machines do neither. How do we keep the consumer base from eroding?

 

[SDRick]

The gap between the low wage workers needed vs available is already so wide it's irrelevant. More immigrants aren't going to take jobs from Americans. The only thing they're going to do is slightly delay automation. Is your goal to accelerate automation? What's your solution to automation? How do we keep the consumer base from eroding?

Immigrants purchased goods and rented a place to live creating more consumers in the community. Robot-Mowers and Blueberry harvesting machines do neither. How do we keep the consumer base from eroding?

Let's keep it simple and just focus on immigration for a moment. You are asking questions and stating a variety of economic thoughts and theory. Take the two or three policy sentences I wrote above and edit or change it to reflect your thoughts on how to address the issue. At this point it sounds like your policy would be unlimited immigration because it would add consumers? If that is or is not the case do me a solid and change my words to accurately reflect your thoughts.

 

[nwdiver]

Let's keep it simple and just focus on immigration for a moment. You are asking questions and stating a variety of economic thoughts and theory. Take the two or three policy sentences I wrote above and edit or change it to reflect your thoughts on how to address the issue. At this point it sounds like your policy would be unlimited immigration because it would add consumers? If that is or is not the case do me a solid and change my words to accurately reflect your thoughts.

My only point is that overall immigration helps unemployment. The openness of borders is sadly more dependent on how comfortable people are with shifting demographics...

If I'm a newscaster I would prefer to serve an area with 200k people than 50k people. Last time I checked the revenue of programming is based on the number of viewers.

 

[juliusa]

If an immigrant is performing a job that either would have not been performed or would have been performed by a machine

I don't understand what job that is. What job can be done by an immigrant or machine, but not by a non-immigrant? Do immigrants have some physical or mental capability not posessed by non-immigrants?

Labor force participation is the number of people working at it's at its lowest level since the end of the Vietnam War

Yes, more people have made the choice not to work. Seems that is an acceptable option. Perhaps more families choosing to have one spouse work instead of both as a quality of life choice. As unemployment decreases, and wages increase, more of those people will choose to work than not work, and re-enter the workforce. An endless supply of cheap labor entering the workforce prevents that from happening - that is the corrupt government bowing to their corporate overlords at the expense of workers.

From the data you have posted it is clear we do not need more workers in this country. While unemployment is low, there are plenty of people not participating in the labor force. With the impending loss of so many millions of jobs, tell me again why we want to bring more workers into the country?

 

[nwdiver]

I don't understand what job that is. What job can be done by an immigrant or machine, but not by a non-immigrant?

..........

No, I'm saying that people in this country are mathematically incapable of supporting their quality of life doing jobs immigrants do for what they get paid. If immigrants didn't do them most of these jobs would either not be done or get automated.

Immigrants perform plenty of discretionary tasks. I don't need tomatoes. If they're ~$1/lb I'll buy some. If they're $1.50/lb I won't. If an immigrant is picking tomatoes they'll be $1/lb. If they have to increase wages to attract an American worker tomatoes would be $5/lb and far fewer people will buy tomatoes and they'll probably need to automate the process to get the cost back to $1/lb.

And wages are not rising. Any real increase in wages will likely just cross the inflection point for automation and instead of a higher paying job that job will just evaporate.

For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades

 

[juliusa]

..........



And wages are not rising. Any real increase in wages will likely just cross the inflection point for automation and instead of a higher paying job that job will just evaporate.

For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades

If there was not an endless supply of cheap labor, real wages would rise. That is why it only costs the rich guy $20 to get his lawn cut. Without the endless supply of cheap labor, he would have to open up his wallet and spend $40 to have his lawn cut. Wages would rise, and each week he would DOUBLE the economic activity ($40 instead of $20) from the service of having his lawn cut. Same for his nanny, housekeeper, and cook.

The person that would rather pick their nose than earn $20 per lawn would be willing to do it for $40 a lawn and re-enter the labor market.

Economics is really quite rational. And people make rational decisions.