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Greenercars.org still hates Tesla

Discussion in 'Model S' started by chickensevil, Jul 25, 2014.

  1. chickensevil

    chickensevil Active Member

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    I know this has been brought up before, but I want to mention this again, since this continues to be a sore place for me because my building is LEED certified, and they base their parking off of this list. As in... I cannot get a parking pass unless my vehicle is on this list or I become some very important person to rate my own special spot.

    Here is their website: greenercars.org | the most comprehensive and scientific environmental vehicle ratings resource
    Here is the download for the list of cars that score at least a 40: http://greenercars.org/LEED2014.zip

    So every time we get a new employee it is always asked what the parking situation is like. And the question gets asked if they have a green car then they can get parking much easier here. Normally the guys I work with drive like a Passat TDI, a Prius, a Volt, or some such other car that would generally be considered pretty high on the "green" scale. But now I found out that one of our guys got a pass for his Hyundai Veloster... and I have to ask myself, why? This thing scores a 45 on their scale, which isn't just "passing" but considered pretty high. So I started digging through the list, and find cars like this:
    YearMakeModelCityHwyScore
    2014PorcheBoxster213040
    2012FordMustang193140
    2014Chrysler200203140
    2011LotusElise202640
    2014AcuraTSX212940


    How in the world does this even remotely make sense? None of these cars are what I would ever consider "fuel efficient". Anyway, I sent them a nasty gram email complaining to them yet again about this. Especially when they claim: "independent, nonprofit research group dedicated to advancing energy efficiency... blah blah blah"...

    if you want to express your anger over this I would greatly appreciate it... please send all hate mail to:
    American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy
    529 14th St, N.W. Suite 600
    Washington, DC 20045
    Phone: (202) 507-4000
    Fax: (202) 429-2248
    Email: [email protected]
     
  2. liuping

    liuping Active Member

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    Did the ACEEE test the Tesla and reject it, or have they just not gotten around to verifying it should be on the list?

    If they have not tested it, I would request a waver from you company to get a spot until the list is updated.
     
  3. JST

    JST Active Member

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    I don't see any Teslas in the database. The Leaf is, and scores a 55, and their methodology talks about how they measure electric cars, so the oversight seems pretty bizarre.

    EDIT: Thought this is pretty funny.

    201203_COMCHEVROLETVOLT Electric (Li-ion bat.)Bin 43353
    201203_COMCHEVROLETVOLT 1.4L 4, auto [P]Bin 4354 044
     
  4. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    here was my email to them:

    How is it possible that the following cars that all average ~20mpg make the green LEED CERTIFIED VEHICLES list?

    • Various Porsche Models
    • Range Rover Evoque
    • Various Mercedes Models
    • Various Jeeps
    • etc
    Meanwhile, the most greenest car of them all, the Tesla Model S, which

    • achieves >89eMPG fully electric,
    • won the 2013 World Green Car of the Year award,
    • tops the 2014 AAA Green Car #1 spot,
    • won 2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year,
    • won the 2014 The International Engine of the Year Award in Green Engine category,
    • won Automobile Magazine's 2013 Car of the Year,
    • won Time Magazine Best 25 Inventions of the Year 2012 award,
    • Consumer Reports' top-scoring car ever,
    • won the prestigious Consumer Reports Best Overall car for 2014,
    • Consumer Reports highest Owner score ever,
    • named the top model in perceived quality by Strategic Vision's Total Quality index,
    • achieved the best safety rating of any car ever tested,
    • is manufactured by Tesla Motors which received the Environmental Leadership Award from Global Green USA,
    • and was the first electric car to top the monthly new car sales ranking in any country

    ...yet the Tesla Model S doesn't even show up on your radar even though you list other electric cars like the Leaf, FitEV,500E,Spark,Focus, and you also list the Rav4EV and Smart Fortwo Electric both of which use TESLA POWERTRAINS.....

    Please explain.

    BAFFLED AND CONFUSED,
     
  5. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    Kind of sounds like they simply haven't tested one. Looks like they're in DC. Perhaps a kind East Coast owner can donate their car for a day of testing?

    Edit: And I certainly wouldn't call the Model S "the greenest car of them all." Certainly that should go to the Leaf or one of the other small electrics. Our MPGe is on the low side for electrics because the car is giant in multiple ways.
     
  6. JST

    JST Active Member

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    They are almost literally around the corner from the Tesla DC store.
     
  7. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    Baffling, then.

    Also, it's not fair for your building to exclude parking based on a list that's incomplete. There has to be some kind of waiver process. If some 3rd party company doesn't test your car you're SOL? That's terrible.
     
  8. JST

    JST Active Member

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    #8 JST, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
    It's worse than that, I think, because it sounds like their full ratings guide is not available without a subscription. The material online is apparently only their "Greenest" and "Meanest" listing, though how a BEV wouldn't meet the "Greenest" criteria is a head-scratcher.

    But it is particularly ridiculous for a private building to use a proprietary third party set of rankings that are not publicly available for things like parking decisions.

    greenercars.org | ACEEE's Green Book

    EDIT: And from what I can understand about their methodology, it doesn't sound like there is any real testing involved--just mathematical analysis.

    greenercars.org | how we rate the vehicles
     
  9. donv

    donv Member

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    Obviously these guys are morons... in my office building, they have a "drive green" parking discount. Interestingly, Tesla wasn't on their list (maybe they get it from the same guys?) but when I emailed the parking people, they instantly responded with "Of course the Tesla qualifies" and gave me the discount.

    Maybe Tesla didn't pay (er... "contribute to") this organization to do the testing?
     
  10. chickensevil

    chickensevil Active Member

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    Sadly it is worse than that. So back in 2008 - 2012 (maybe 2013?) the excuse for both the roadster first, and then the Model S was that they didn't test the car because it was a "low volume" car. To which I questioned that they "tested" and continue to have the EV1 which wasn't even available outside of CA and there are none privately owned anymore (I heard recently that there was actually 1 EV1 that was still functional in located at a school). Anyway, in 2013 someone complained that enough was enough, and you couldn't consider the car a low volume car anymore given that they were churning out full speed ahead. So when they published their 2014 list they tested the Model S... it scored a 38 if I am not mistaken. Which is 2 points too low to be considered "green". They supposedly test every car, and then only publish the "green" ones publicly, the rest are subscription restricted.

    This is all in conjuction with LEED certification. Most LEED certified buildings have incentives for "green" car use, and default to this list. In the case of my building, getting a carpool pass or green car pass is like a 1 week turn around... getting a "general" pass is a 2+ year wait (and then if you are someone special or important or whatever, you of course can get a pass too). I am not familiar with any other LEED buildings and their operations... this is the first LEED building I have worked out of.

    Hope that helps clear it up. Also, my email was far more... harsh... so I won't post it here.
     
  11. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    #11 Gizmotoy, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
    Sounds like they mucked something up, then, or their calculations are such that they are unusually biased against the Model S. Hard to say without giving them money, which I'm not about to do. Perhaps your building can provide the full report to see what is going on, there?

    My guess is that BEVs are crippled in their ratings based on some poor recycling number, and the bigger the battery the worse you do. For example, note the Leaf and the Prius get the exact same score. The Leaf has a 115MPGe while the Prius gets ~50MPG. The Volt is nowhere to be found. Of the "Greenest" cars, only 2 EVs make the list, and both are small.

    And you're right, cars with MPGs as low as 22MPG, from what I can tell, are on the list. Very unusual calculations, here.

    Edit: According to articles I found online, weight is actually a major factor in their formula. The Model S is heavy, so it's hampered significantly, despite getting good MPGe.
    ACEEE Green Car Ratings: No Respect for Weighty Tesla | PluginCars.com
    Sounds like a flawed formula to me. Weight is a factor in efficiency, but certainly that is reflected in the vehicles overall MPG. There's no reason to punish it further for the sole fact that it is heavy, especially if it achieves good MPG despite its weight.
     
  12. JST

    JST Active Member

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    God, that's stupid.
     
  13. robatbeach

    robatbeach Member

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    Unfortunately, I know lots of designers like this. They fall in love with their equation, algorithm, theory, whatever and deny any facts and data that obviously refute its validity; they then defend their faulty equation, algorithm and theory to the death until overwhelmed by real data to the contrary. It's pretty obvious that this equation they use doesn't work. Everyone should take the opportunity to point this out where possible. It is so ridiculous to have some of those cars on their list and not the Tesla that at some point, they just won't be able to continue to stand by it with a straight, not embarrassed and ridiculed face.
     
  14. CatB

    CatB Member

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    Maybe we need to write LEED and question their choice of even using ACEEE instead of stating a simple, reasonable standard like carbon output and mpg for ICE/hybrid (standard changing year by year) or being BEV.
     
  15. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    I believe the problem is that the people who did this probably came from the traditional automotive industry. So they have always had their own biases, which were based upon what they personally perceive as a 'car'. That point of view led them to create a formula that effectively discounted the very possibility of a car such as the Tesla Model S coming into existence, because no one else had ever made one, and no one was expected to ever do so. The same thing happens with automotive journalists who have always claimed that electric cars are not fun, not desirable, not affordable, cannot be used for road trips, are completely inconvenient, and essentially a complete waste of time. They simply refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary when presented with the Tesla Model S, and the accomplishments of the company that made it. They don't accept the validity of owners' statements about how they go on road trips all the time, never run out of charge, have no 'range anxiety' whatsoever, and wake up to 'a full tank' every morning. This is the true essence of a 'reality distortion field' in action.

    "I don't believe it. Prove it to me, and I still won't believe it." -- Ford Prefect, 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'
     
  16. jamieb

    jamieb Member

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    I love this quote. So applicable in so many contexts. Consider it borrowed.
     
  17. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    [ASIDE] In Douglas Adams' books, the term used is 'SEP Field', instead of 'Reality Distortion Field'... You can read about it HERE. [/ASIDE]
     
  18. chickensevil

    chickensevil Active Member

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    Well, still no response to my email... I live close enough, I am inclined to make trip into DC and give them a piece of my mind...
     
  19. scott jones

    scott jones Member

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    Do it chickensevil!
     
  20. evme

    evme Member

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    Probably want to write to LEED, also to Tesla about the issue.
     

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