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Grid Tied Electric Vehicle announced by Nissan and EnelSpA

Discussion in 'Tesla Energy' started by nativewolf, May 11, 2016.

  1. nativewolf

    nativewolf Member

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  2. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    I read that article and do not understand what Nissan and EnelSpA are doing.

    The EV is "grid tied", and is that done through a storage battery? Is the storage battery charged by the EV? That can't be right. First you charge the EV and then the EV charges the storage battery which feeds it back into the grid? Seems circular.

    Quote from the article: "Dubbed “xStorage,” the energy storage unit will be available in October and was developed by Nissan and Eaton Corp., a Cleveland-based company that has also entered the partnership. The system will be priced starting at 4,000 euros ($4,556)."

    No kWh value is provided.

    That article is confusing. So I searched and found this one that clarifies some things: Nissan's xStorage is its take on Tesla's Powerwall battery

    It explains that xStorage is a product that uses a used Leaf battery (or at least part of one). The battery is stated to be "roughly 4.2kWh" and the cost is about US$4,500 including installation.

    That is more costly than the Powerwall, which uses brand new cells, by the way. Also, Nissan is not exactly renowned for its BMS technology, which Tesla appears to excel at.

    The EnGadget article also makes clear that Nissans V2G system (vehicle-to-grid) system is a separate thing from their xStorage.
     
    • Informative x 1
  3. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    My Model X is also "grid tied". I am in California and use Ohmconnect to tell me when peaker plants are running. My Model X will not charge during those times. There is another thread on this forum that explains how it works in more detail. I will post link later
     
    • Like x 1
  4. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    2 way VTG. Not just demand response.
     
  5. ggies07

    ggies07 Active Member

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    Now this is smart and resourceful, not only for consumers, but as a business. I would never have thought to create a company that would monitor this. nice!
     
  6. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    I understand. Tesla will have to do some algorithms to keep people from charging free at a SC and powering their car. I didn't see much detail about how the Nissan system, but it is nice that more companies are entering this space.
     
  7. montreid

    montreid Member

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    Multiple reasons to allow Vehicle 2 Grid (V2G) = aka smartgrid that Obama kept talking about. -- ultimate energy efficiency.
    A battery on an EV that just sits there with a system consuming demand is opportunity wasted.

    If I have 30 kwH of battery that I Know that I won't use that day, why not discharge it into the grid to support building (or local grid) demand then recharge at night when ultralow demand is present?

    Yes, it wears out the battery (as does a daily draw on Powerwalls, but that doesn't stop that conversation, does it?); however the benefits of shifting demand with the surplus battery in stasis makes sense.

    Also, if you have this setup done, it's great emergency backup too --- not more generators needed!
     
  8. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    It's a lovely concept, but ...
    - it's best to avoid cycling the battery
    - a large chunk of the benefits to the grid could be gained simply by having one-way smarts, by using variable charging to balance production and other demand.
    - utilities don't really want full V2G, because they'd rather spend the money on batteries themselves and get their guaranteed ROI
    - ... and if battery prices continue to fall, why wouldn't the utility use their own, commercial-scale storage?
    - ... and why wouldn't you buy a dedicated home storage battery?

    As long as you don't need to go out, of course. With a dedicated battery you wouldn't have that problem, and you'd be able to use the solar power to charge the battery while you're out.
     
  9. montreid

    montreid Member

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    Powerwall is cycling the battery daily---what's the difference? Same batteries coming off the same line. Why pay for two battery packs when you haven't optimally utilized the one on four wheels first? My point is why buy another Tesla Powerwall if you don't powercycle batteries sitting in your driveway if you're done with the car for the evening? We routinely come home with two EVs at 50%+ charge available that would we'd love to plug into our home to offset consumption when solar production is just starting to wane.

    Of course utilities don't want full V2G. They don't want netmetering either. They also want the taxpayers to fully pay for their silly mistakes like San Onofre nuclear reactors. Yes, Tesla is also targeting commercial with their industrial sized batteries too.

    --In an emergency, one tends NOT to go out, but shelter in place. Our Solar is great during the day if the grid-tied system has an emergency switchover (eg solaredge 7600); but useless for 8-10 hours a day.
     
  10. AB4EJ

    AB4EJ Member

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    This concept is not new, I remember reading about some systems for doing this in Japan with Leaf batteries about 4 years ago. Some factors that will suppress this uptake of this:

    • As I understand it, the current Tesla (vehicle) battery warranty is voided if you are using the battery for purposes other than to power the car, i.e., V2G.
    • It makes sense only if there is a significant difference between on-peak and off-peak electricity prices. In a lot of places (Southeast US being one example), you get minimal discount for off-peak usage (less than 15%). The difference has to be a lot to justify the major investment in equipment and installation
     
  11. Troy916

    Troy916 Member

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    Elon has stated that the batteries in the car should last for between 10 and 15 years. And they are designed to cycled weekly. Vs the Powerwall which is expected to be cycled daily. So they are not the same batteries, even though they are coming from the same factory.
     
  12. montreid

    montreid Member

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    Both packs are Panasonic 18650 batteries. There's little shown to say otherwise a difference beyond them saying the cycling. Of course Tesla doesn't want to allow the car to be plugged in for V2G.

    They want to sell Powerwalls, and people are lining up without even questioning the benefit of this. Yes, he's pushed the EV adoption with Tesla; but on his terms and not for the industry as a whole (otherwise he'd open Tesla's supercharging network to fee-for-charge CCS and push V2g like Nissan has shown viability).

    Edit: I don't fault him on this either. He has a company to run and doing it quite well. But don't think that Tesla is a Al Gore company. It's a tech company that happens to be in a Green Tech Sector.
     
  13. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

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    V2G. I could talk for days on this concept. I'm happy to see something happening. It's still such a small thing. If only Tesla wanted to do at least unidirectional V2G, or someone wanted to.
     
  14. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    JB has recently said that variable EV charging to benefit the grid is easily doable for Tesla vehicles and it is only software. They probably just need some standard way to get the grid demand signal so they can make a more universal implementation.
     
  15. montreid

    montreid Member

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    StorEdge™ Solutions
    --Solaredge has their modulator to do this already. Just substitute the powerwall out with any EV battery -- just need the connection and 'okay' from the EV manufacturer to discharge their battery this way.
    --Point is that this should be way easier and pushed by companies. I only see Nissan even remotely interested in pushing this conversation unfortunately.
     
  16. BrokerDon

    BrokerDon Member

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    My Tesla is also enrolled in OhmConnect's Demand Response program earning us OhmConnect credits which we've used to purchase Wiser Smart Plugs from OhmConnect to automatically cycle other appliances / devices off during #OhmHours (when dirty "peaker" power plants fire up on our grid).

    I'd love you to join our OhmConnect Team Tesla Save $$$ #OhmHour in effect until 3:00PM. Save energy to earn!
     
  17. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

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    I've been saying that for 4 years now.
     
  18. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    I wonder how they are going to prevent people from charging at Supercharger and disccharging at home.
     
  19. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

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    With unidirectional V2G, you'd just provide services, not energy, so that wouldn't be a problem.
     
  20. EaglesPDX

    EaglesPDX Member

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    Musk is totally a missionary with Solar City, Tesla and SpaceX. Save the planet if he can, provide the means to establish viable colonies off planet if he can't.

    The Powerall enables the utiltiies to have substantial solar/wind power. When available, the Powerwall allows the utility to store power at the end user. When wind and solar are off line, the saved power runs the homes.

    Bonneville Power has to shutdown the wind generators as they generate TOO MUCH POWER. Instead of turning them off, pump the power into Powerwall and Powerpack installations. This allows for much greater utilitization of solar and wind power.
     

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