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Ground clearance - X and S look similar, now that pics of the mules are out and about

Discussion in 'Model X' started by OConnorStP, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. OConnorStP

    OConnorStP Member

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    Hi all you moderators -- feel free to drop this post into the appropriate thread. I couldn't find it, but I'm happy to have this moved to the right place.

    I'm one of the folks who bailed out on the X and bought a P85D instead. One of the reasons was because it looked like the X wasn't going to have much, if any, difference in ground clearance. I didn't really need all the cubic volume, just good traction.

    So now that all the pictures of the mules are starting to show up, I've been looking at them pretty hard to see what the ground clearance looks like -- and it looks pretty close to the S to me. Has anybody taken up my obsessive quest on this topic? Are there useful factoids that you can share?
     
  2. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    How did you come to that conclusion? Specs haven't been released yet (not to mention when you bought your Model S).
     
  3. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    Not sure you can read too much into this since there is no way of telling how the pictures are done and of course the X picture is an early prototype not a mule.

    X and S side by side.PNG s and x side by side from the back.PNG
     
  4. OConnorStP

    OConnorStP Member

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    Factoids is what I'm looking for...

    I ordered the P85D on release day, cancelled and re-ordered to avoid factory troubles (I got caught in the "black hole") and have had it in my hands for just over a week. I did a photo-comparison a lot like the one on the left that aronth5 just posted -- there doesn't look to be a whole lot of ground-clearance difference. That's why I'm interested in the mules, since they look pretty low as well. But if there aren't any factoids, just put this on the "never mind" pile.
     
  5. goneskiian

    goneskiian Active Member

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    No factoids. Just my opinion, but it looks to be more clearance on the X.
     
  6. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    As I've made (or even belabored) the point before, people make purchasing decision on incomplete or unofficial information about future products all the time. They must, because personal reasons don't always align with corporate product launch interests. Some of it is rational, other irrational, but usually it is important to the person themselves.

    One thing we can do in a place like is to use thorough analysis of public information, leaks and unofficial data, combined with personal experiences, industry knowledge, competitor information etc. etc. to make that information a little less incomplete. Communities like that can cover some of the middle ground between personal and corporate interest.

    I think the ground clearance question is very much an answerable one (not conclusively, but still) - and I'm glad someone brought it up.

    Here are some avenues I'd suggest taking the discussion down to:

    1. What was the ground clearance of the Model X prototype? Any measurements on that, as people have seen it in person? Or perhaps did Tesla even comment on it at the time?

    2. Any way to measure the ground clearance of the various mule sightings this year, from the photos or the video?

    3. What is the usual ground clearance difference between competing sedans (e.g. the A6) and their cross-over conversions (e.g. the A6 allroad)? Comparing like-to-like spring options (air in that case).

    We should at least be able to put some numbers, some range on our expectations on the topic.

    Sorry I don't have a moment to answer these myself yet, but hopefully someone can.
     
  7. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    Your definition of 'facts' and my definition of 'facts' are definitely not the same.
     
  8. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    But how does that point really help the OP or TMC. We all know discussing products pre-launch is dealing with uncertainty.

    From your personal experience or conversation with Tesla, do you have a number or some thought in mind about what the Model X ground clearance has been (in the prototype stage) or might be upon launch?
     
  9. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I measured the clearance for someone on the early prototype a LONNNNG time ago. Of course that was while parked - who knows what it would be with air suspension, different tires, or (novel idea) the actual final production version. You'd have to search around in the Model X forum to find what I measured and reported back. I have no idea what it was.

    As far as helping the OP, he actually wants real information.
    Do you have any idea how many times speculation on this forum has become *fact* to some, only to be extremely disappointed when Tesla releases?
     
  10. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    To answer the Audi comparison: (A6) allroad, first and third generation have 8 inch ground clearance (second generation a little under), compared to a maximum of 5.7 inch ground clearance on at least the current A6 sedan with air suspension, if the quick numbers I gathered are correct. So a difference of 2.3 inches.

    The Audi A4 allroad has a fixed raise of around 1.5 inches compared to the Audi A4 sedan (spring coils), again if a very quick check is correct.

    Perhaps the Audi examples would set our expectations somewhere around the 2 inch mark? Anyone have time to check other competing sedan-to-CUV "conversions"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Why does that matter so much, though? If pre-launch only facts matter, we might as well discuss only funny GIFs.

    I think, overall, exactly that incomplete/unofficial information (together with disappointments too) is the salt of any interest group discussing pre-launch products. Enthusiasts can provide a valuable service to other enthusiasts, no matter how incomplete.

    Just my opinion. I get it that you disagree, and do respect that. I wish you'd change your mind, though. :)

    p.s. Thank you for the comment on the ground clearance, appreciated.
     
  11. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    It matters because you said I wasn't helping him when I said that no specs had been released yet. I pointed out he asked for facts and if we didn't have facts, then 'never mind'. Please don't twist this into something else.
     
  12. Macgaver

    Macgaver Member

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    On this yesterday spy photo, It seem we can see the clearance difference between the low and high of the air suspension (front and back are really different ... look like they were testing something).

    We can also see the new wheels, and I think the tire size are way bigger (prototype were on 24' right ?)

    https://s.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/GYIv5V0TqLQrzEmM.mqG9Q--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MTAwMDtjcj0xO2N3PTE1MDA7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTcwMDtpbD1wbGFuZTtxPTc1O3c9MTA1MA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/autos/2015-03-24/a4f72d00-d24b-11e4-893d-457d75b70f54_Model-X_006.jpg
     
  13. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    I got the impression the OP was looking for useful information on the ground clearance of the Model X - and whether or not anyone had taken up the task to research what could be found out. I don't see how curt answers like that help him or the conversation here.

    I think we could be more welcoming to interesting topics, even if it means discussing something not yet released. When the first response is basically questioning the guy instead of pondering the topic, no wonder they go to "never mind" fast and run away. Just my opinion.

    And on that note:

    I mentioned 1.5-2.3 inches of difference between Audi sedans and Audi allroads of various persuation. They are good examples in that they are normal cars converted into cross-overs. Although they are slightly more positioned for the dirt than X is...

    On the BMW side we can find a non-allroad example that might be relevant, the BMW 5 GT. It isn't positioned as a dirt road weapon, but more of a luxury "big car" for the lack of a better word. Just like the X vs. S, 5 GT is a higher riding, but also taller version of the 5. But apparently the basic difference in ground clearance there is only around 0.1-0.2 inches there, even though the car has a bit of a CUVish posture. That said, I think Tesla is aiming a little higher - literally - with the Model X, 5 GT is probably too much of a big sedan in its market positioning still to be the best comparison...

    What about Mercedes Benz? The Mercedes Benz GLA would seem like a timely candidate for scrutiny, although from a different price point and size segment. Basic versions have 6.1-6.7 inches, the offroad 8 inches of ground clearance. The new A Class, on the other hand, around 4.5 inches - max 3.5 inch difference. Now, it has to be said the A Class has perhaps the "worst" clearance of its class, while GLA is best of class, so again, perhaps not the best comparison but still a competitive data point of cars based on the same platform - one a normal, another a cross-over.

    Summary of ground clearance differences:

    Audi allroads sedans vs. CUVs: 1.5-2.3 inches
    BMW 5 vs. 5 GT: 0.1-0.2 inches
    MB A vs. GLA: 1.6-3.5 inches

    These are just very quick numbers I grabbed, to give some idea, so feel free to correct and add as appropriate if I made a mistake. But I think looking at those numbers, if Tesla has decided to go for added ground clearance and the battery slate is not hampering them too much, adding maybe two inches (50 mm) to the ground clearance seems plausible compared to the competition. Then again, it isn't completely unheard of to simply make a higher car, that sits nominally higher, aka the BMW 5 GT.

    Please feel to add any other cross-over ground clearances from other cars / manufacturers!

    As for analyzing the mule, that must wait for another moment for me... Feel free to pitch in all. :)
     
  14. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    Wow. Talk about reading all sorts of things into a simple exchange. I'm going the 'never mind' route here and not feeding this little frenzy.
     
  15. BerTX

    BerTX Member

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    8.5 ". No, really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    People were doing all kinds of wheelbase measurements based on the 27.5" diameter of the tire. I have no idea if the tire on the MX is the same as the MS, but somebody should be able to measure the ground clearance based on that.
     
  16. Nevek

    Nevek Overt Member

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    You did warn us some time ago that based on the lead-up to the release of the S, things could get a little testy before the X launch. While this is exchange is civilized, it shows how much hunger there is for anything Xish.
     
  17. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    To not sound negative, but on the contrary - here are choice contributions from two favourite senior members on the topic. I would love more of this. Nothing testy about that.

    bonnie (same?):

    "Bonnie was so kind as to get a rough ground clearance measurement for us and the number is 8.9" the same as todays Subaru Outback which has reasonable clearance imo."

    Pictures from Model X showing at Santana Row | Forums | Tesla Motors

    Now, this of course being the original prototype that has since changed in many ways... But still, nice to see a number to work from.

    And picture(s) painted/pointed out by NigelM:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=61351&d=1413211221.jpg

    Ground clearance of X compared to S

    Mmm... multi-coat spotted dick paint... But in all seriousness, useful contributions above.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=75879&d=1427319616.jpg

    It looks as if the mule is either just speeding up or rear heavy, but this image pair gives some idea... The Model S in the image seems to be in a fairly high suspension setting as well and looks lower overall...

    $_1.JPG

    In summary, my money would be on the Model X having a couple of inches above the Model S with air suspension, like the A6 allroad compared to A6 sedan, but aside from toying a few moments in Photoshop I haven't gotten around to putting a number on it. With fairly high resolution images and video of the mules available, it should be possible to try and update that old 8.9" from Bonnie.

    Any takers? :)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, to be fair to me I think, most of my response of a few dozen lines was about CUV ground clearances. If I were the OP, I would find it more useful than curt and testy answers.

    But then, of course, I'm not the OP and I don't what he appreciates or not. Just trying to help the guy/gal out. Let's be welcoming to new posters and topics, I'll say. Just an opinion.
     
  18. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    Your assumption that my answer was 'curt and testy' is amusing. I asked a question. You've decided that was 'curt and testy'.

    Interesting that you believe someone would want to make purchase decisions off what is clearly guessing, since NO ONE KNOWS what the ground clearance is right now. THAT information would be helpful to me, not being misled about 'oh it might be this based on the position of blah blah blah'.

    But thanks for making me 'curt and testy'. Because I'm starting to feel that way with these types of assumptions assigned to simple posts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And note that the measurement I was happy to supply was FACTUAL, not guessing. I had a tape measure with me and measured it. But that was on the first prototype. Means nothing today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hah. The person who posted my measurement also said:

    And that's accurate. A very thin branch of speculation.
     
  19. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    bonnie:

    Thank you for the candid comments. FWIW, it read to me as curt perhaps a little annoyed, still reads that way. Perhaps it wasn't your intent, of course. You made two very brief comments to the OP:

    "How did you come to that conclusion? Specs haven't been released yet (not to mention when you bought your Model S)."

    "Your definition of 'facts' and my definition of 'facts' are definitely not the same."

    I've read and re-read the OPs posts and even accounting for the possibility he edited some word or another, I still have a hard time not seeing those answers of yours as curt. Now, the word "testy" I borrowed liberally from another poster - admitted. :)

    That is not what I want, though. I want "someone" to be availed to the best possible information and believe communities and interest groups such as this one can be instrumental in providing it. Because if Tesla had their way, people like the OP would make their purchase decisions devoid of any forward-looking information, beyond the official releases. That may not always be in the interest of private people, though, so that's where communities like this kick in.

    Look, people will make their purchase decisions anyway, whether or not official information is available. Just like the OP did. Merely answering no specs have been released is hardly the best we can do. I'm not sure the best we can do has been seen in this thread yet either, and maybe it never will, but personally I would love to try and foster an atmosphere where such a contribution could be possible.

    Stock market has hordes of them, called analysts. The present they - just like us - analyze. The future, of course, they speculate on. Just like us.
     
  20. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I'm just going to ignore your need to decide what I meant or didn't mean.

    As far as purchase decisions and needing info ... no one has made a purchase decision yet for the Model X that I'm aware of. Right now I have a reservation. When I have actual facts, then I'll make a decision. I assume the vehicle will be what I want, but I don't know that. And if it isn't, I'll have my reservation deposit returned.

    If I decide to purchase something else or wait, based on speculation here - then that's a risk I take. I personally wouldn't call that an informed decision. You do. We're different.

    The rest of this is noise. Sorry, but true. Fun noise in some places. But to talk about it as if it is helpful information as input on a purchase decision? Not for me. And that's where we differ.

    Just a polite request from me: Please stop trying to escalate things and make it personal by telling me (or anyone, for that matter) that I'm behaving a certain way. I can almost see the finger waggling in the air. Stop with the judgment of people and stay focused on the content, if you would be so kind. Perhaps it's because English is not your native language, I don't know. Sometimes words take on a slightly different intent during translation. Or maybe it's cultural. But let's move on, please. That's my 'assume good intent' spin on it, anyway.
     

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