Growing FSD liability could be massive.

Tesla: Growing Full Self-Driving Liability Could Be Massive (NASDAQ:TSLA)

Tesla, Inc. recently issued a recall on its full self-driving software package. Click for my take on TSLA's potential liability for FSD and my view of the stock.

seekingalpha.com

“For those that have followed the Tesla story, you know that CEO Elon Musk has basically talked about full self-driving for almost a decade now. The company still has not shown off the U.S. coast-to-coast autonomous drive that it said would come by the end of 2017, for instance.”

“The potential liability question comes into play here if you think Tesla won't be able to truly solve FSD with the current hardware. One might think that a potential lawsuit would just want to refund the FSD price, and those arguing here might cite the recall number of vehicles to get a total liability. At an average cost of $10,000 for FSD, that gets you to around $4 billion when you consider how many customers have reportedly paid for the package so far.”

Image source: Full Self-Driving Computer Installations | Tesla Support Other Europe
Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[Dewg]

But I am certain there are tons of (Tesla) buyers who have purchased FSD based on the claims made by the very vocal and very hands on CEO of the company

I consider myself an above average consumer. I researched my Tesla before buying. I read trade magazine articles about the safety and reliability of the vehicle. I read Consumer Reports, and reviewed IIHS crash test results. I learned about below average build quality and found a delivery checklist someone created which I ultimately used.

I never thought to find remarks of the CEO on Twitter. Had no idea he was on there until I joined TMC.

Tons of buyers, eh? I know of no one that goes looking for what the CEO of BMW says on Twitter before buying their new X5. I think you have it backwards. It's a fraction of the overall Tesla buying population that made their decision based on tweets from Elon. Hopefully they will find peace once they've had their day in court, and leave the vast majority of happy Tesla owners alone.

 

[Leytonstone]

I am sorry, I probably should have put a disclaimer that my opinion is only valid for the way it functions in USA, as I have no experience using it in Europe. I assume that, due to older roads, less planned city street networks, varying local traffic rules, narrower streets etc. it is much more difficult to produce a good FSD solution for that with the current state of technology.

Thing is, half all Tesla revenues come from overseas. Not expecting sympathy, just an appreciation that many owners outside the U.S. have paid for something which performs well below your lowest expectations.

A self-driving system from a company touting "neural network training supercomputers" has to be agnostic about roads, rules, signs, bends, junctions, whether the traffic is left or right hand, who has right of way, and so on - in other words, it needs to be an AI driver replacement, not some weirdly US-centric rules-based automaton.

Any notion it'll only work west of Washington County, ME seems a pretty revealing admission, as does Tesla constantly changing the language it uses to sell it (today it "does not make the vehicle autonomous" - really!?).

 

[birjman]

Tons of buyers, eh? I know of no one that goes looking for what the CEO of BMW says on Twitter before buying their new X5. I think you have it backwards. It's a fraction of the overall Tesla buying population that made their decision based on tweets from Elon. Hopefully they will find peace once they've had their day in court, and leave the vast majority of happy Tesla owners alone.

Elon Musk has one of the highest social media followings of all time. He was crazy popular even before Tesla really took off with Model 3 production. Comparing his outreach to the CEO of BMW is disingenuous at best. Heck you don't even have to leave this thread to see that many are drinking his Kool-aid.

"Tons" and "a fraction of overall Tesla buying population" are not mutually exclusive btw.

 

[2101Guy]

What does “designed to be able to conduct trips with no action from the person in the driver’s seat mean?

GSP

THIS...is a symptom of Stan-ism. LOL.

Dude (or Dudette): IT MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS.

Drivers seat=seat where the driver of a vehicle, resides/sits.
NO ACTION=DOING NOTHING. SITTING LIKE A MANEQUIN TOUCHING NO DRIVE RELATED CONTROLS WHATSOEVER. THE CAR IS DOING 100% OF EVERYTHING.


Its not that hard if you dont try to finagle excuses for Elon

 

[enemji]

A self-driving system from a company touting "neural network training supercomputers" has to be agnostic about roads, rules, signs, bends, junctions, whether the traffic is left or right hand, who has right of way, and so on - in other words, it needs to be an AI driver replacement, not some weirdly US-centric rules-based automaton.

Any notion it'll only work west of Washington County, ME seems a pretty revealing admission, as does Tesla constantly changing the language it uses to sell it (today it "does not make the vehicle autonomous" - really!?).

Yes and No.
AI by definition needs to be trained. With Data. Like any other living creature including humans.

So it will only be capable of doing based upon the training it has had.

 

[Dewg]

Elon Musk has one of the highest social media followings of all time. He was crazy popular even before Tesla really took off with Model 3 production. Comparing his outreach to the CEO of BMW is disingenuous at best. Heck you don't even have to leave this thread to see that many are drinking his Kool-aid.

"Tons" and "a fraction of overall Tesla buying population" are not mutually exclusive btw.

I don't care how popular the guy is, it's just not the norm for people to seek out Twitter comments from a CEO before buying a car. Maybe someday it will be, but the average consumer does not today. I personally know of 10 Teslas purchased by friends and coworkers. I'll bet none of them looked to Elon's Twitter as part of their decision making process. Does that prove anything? Statistically, no. 10 out of millions is nothing. But I can argue the opposite by saying the dozens or even a hundred of disgruntled people here on TMC are statistically insignificant

I agree with you that "tons" and a fraction can be equivalent given the numbers we're talking about.

 

[galimpic]

A self-driving system from a company touting "neural network training supercomputers" has to be agnostic about roads, rules, signs, bends, junctions, whether the traffic is left or right hand, who has right of way, and so on - in other words, it needs to be an AI driver replacement, not some weirdly US-centric rules-based automaton.

Any notion it'll only work west of Washington County, ME seems a pretty revealing admission, as does Tesla constantly changing the language it uses to sell it (today it "does not make the vehicle autonomous" - really!?).

The traffic in USA/Canada and Europe is simply too different, with Europe being harder and "newer" from the point of view of AI. FSD needs more data and time to learn how to react to all weird situations, so the quality of self-driving there will probably always be a few years behind.

 

[wsucougz]

But I am certain there are tons of (Tesla) buyers who have purchased FSD based on the claims made by the very vocal and very hands on CEO of the company.

Are you one of them?

 

[drtimhill]

Then stop charging 15K for it and not transferring it to a new car

You know that you dont HAVE to buy it, right?

 

[2101Guy]

Are you one of them?

On my current teslas? Heck no.

On my 2017? I absolutely believed what Elon was saying AND I believed the video on teslas website. So I bought FSD.

But as you’ve surely noticed. Even just from this forum, the opinions of FSD now vs then? Totally different..

 

[Dewg]

On my current teslas? Heck no.

On my 2017? I absolutely believed what Elon was saying AND I believed the video on teslas website. So I bought FSD.

But as you’ve surely noticed. Even just from this forum, the opinions of FSD now vs then? Totally different..

Out of morbid curiosity, can you share with the group why you kept buying Teslas (plural) after being savagely crushed by Elon's betrayal on your 2017? You must have recognized the superiority of Tesla over all other EVs on the market, or you would have purchased one of the other EVs - the BMW i9, i3, Chevy Bolt, the VW id.4, etc.

 

[2101Guy]

Out of morbid curiosity, can you share with the group why you kept buying Teslas (plural) after being savagely crushed by Elon's betrayal on your 2017? You must have recognized the superiority of Tesla over all other EVs on the market, or you would have purchased one of the other EVs - the BMW i9, i3, Chevy Bolt, the VW id.4, etc.

Sure. I’ll do so while pointing out your flawed logic that ONE feature defines an overall vehicle. (That’s such myopic logic).

When I make a large purchase, I establish my requirements and prioritization of such. In my case for my LR 2022 S:
- Performance. Acceleration in particular but handling close second
- Ride comfort (air suspension)
- Styling
- Features/tech
-AWD.
- Sedan
- EV platform so I can charge in my garage (this is such a huge convenience)
-Reliability
- interior space
-cargo space
-lift back styling

Those cover most of my main requirements. As I posted in the S forum recently, my 2022 S has truly delivered. Same for the wife’s Y. In her case she loves the quick acceleration, no gas station lines, features, comfort, styling.

I can love all of those things while still calling out a ceo for his false advertising (has ANY plaid done the advertised 200mph yet, by the way?) and numerous misleading mistruths

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

You know that you dont HAVE to buy it, right?

yes I do. I got it at 6K. The price now has gotten out of hand

 

[voyager]

Tesla, Musk sued by shareholders over self-driving safety claims

Tesla and its Chief Executive Elon Musk were sued Monday by shareholders who accused them of overstating the effectiveness and safety of their electric vehicles' Autopilot and Full Self-Driving technologies.

www.autonews.com

 

[Dewg]

Sure. I’ll do so while pointing out your flawed logic that ONE feature defines an overall vehicle. (That’s such myopic logic).

When I make a large purchase, I establish my requirements and prioritization of such. In my case for my LR 2022 S:
- Performance. Acceleration in particular but handling close second
- Ride comfort (air suspension)
- Styling
- Features/tech
-AWD.
- Sedan
- EV platform so I can charge in my garage (this is such a huge convenience)
-Reliability
- interior space
-cargo space
-lift back styling

Those cover most of my main requirements. As I posted in the S forum recently, my 2022 S has truly delivered. Same for the wife’s Y. In her case she loves the quick acceleration, no gas station lines, features, comfort, styling.

I can love all of those things while still calling out a ceo for his false advertising (has ANY plaid done the advertised 200mph yet, by the way?) and numerous misleading mistruths

Thanks. My logic isn't flawed, nor myopic though, but I appreciate your effort to discredit my viewpoints. Glad to see you can separate the company from the CEO and support the company with your dollars while being critical of the CEO. Let's hope for both our sakes that the various lawsuits target the CEO and not the company so that our excellent cars are not harmed in the wake.

 

[Mojito]

The only way to make it worth the 15,000 is it could be made tide to the owner and not the vehicle. That will help sell more cars I for one would upgrade to a new model 3 when the hardware 4 is released. I have had my 2019 model 3 and would not want to part with it cause of the FSD. I bought a model y with no FSD and that was when it was 12,000 I would rather invest the 12,000 and pay 200 monthly subscrption.

 

[Dewg]

It's common for buyers to want to pay less for something, and for sellers to want to charge more for something. It's clear some of you haven't bought and sold houses before.

If you have the FSD package on your car and want to sell it, sell it private party and include the value of the package in your asking price. Make sure the potential buyers understand what they are getting with the purchase, but be reasonable with your pricing. If the market has your car 20 percent depreciated, adjust your FSD package that same amount. Example: You paid 10k for FSD, be willing to sell it for 8k as the value has depreciated along with the car.

 

[Leytonstone]

It's common for buyers to want to pay less for something, and for sellers to want to charge more for something. It's clear some of you haven't bought and sold houses before.

The point being made is not to treat FSD as a physical product but to make it a licence that can be assigned and unassigned to vehicles. This solves the growing levels of resentment that Tesla owners are being charged multiple times for something that, unlike a house, exists in the fevered imagination of the CEO and takes the form of a constantly moving set of technological goalposts.

Many disgruntled owners e.g. me would be pleased to think we have contributed to an evolving platform, and going forward have a ticket to use its functionality in whatever car we happen to be in at the time.

 

[Dewg]

The point being made is not to treat FSD as a physical product but to make it a licence that can be assigned and unassigned to vehicles. This solves the growing levels of resentment that Tesla owners are being charged multiple times for something that, unlike a house, exists in the fevered imagination of the CEO and takes the form of a constantly moving set of technological goalposts.

Many disgruntled owners e.g. me would be pleased to think we have contributed to an evolving platform, and going forward have a ticket to use its functionality in whatever car we happen to be in at the time.

Isn't that the subscription model? I totally get where you're coming from. I'd want that too. I can buy 5 tesla cars and only have to pay once for the package. Saves me loads of money. But that's lots of money tesla doesn't get to make. Look at it from their point of view. They're losing money on the deal. Repeat buyer numbers are huge for tesla. In their eyes you're going to be buying another tesla anyway. And there's a chance that you'll want that capability and will pay for it again (many do). If not, there's another chance that you'll miss the features and start a subscription. More money for them.

Again, I get it. I totally do. You just need to look at it from the seller's point of view.

 

[johnmodely]

I don't care how popular the guy is, it's just not the norm for people to seek out Twitter comments from a CEO before buying a car. Maybe someday it will be, but the average consumer does not today. I personally know of 10 Teslas purchased by friends and coworkers. I'll bet none of them looked to Elon's Twitter as part of their decision making process. Does that prove anything? Statistically, no. 10 out of millions is nothing. But I can argue the opposite by saying the dozens or even a hundred of disgruntled people here on TMC are statistically insignificant

I agree with you that "tons" and a fraction can be equivalent given the numbers we're talking about.

We are taking about FSD purchasers, not your grandma buying a Tesla.

Highly doubt ANYONE that dumped 7-15k on FSD purchase had not heard of or read about Musk's comments about it.

The only reason I even paid for it was because of his comments on AI day and that Robotaxies would be here by end of 2020 and all current FSD owners would be able to opt in (and generate revenue).

Fact that is not even going to happen by end of 2023, and that all these purchasers dont even have the option to transfer to a new car so they someday will be able to use what was promised is how every FSD owner feels, no matter how much you want to deny it from your fan boi view.