"Guilt" for being able to get a Model S?!

[KenEE]

what solfauthor said.

Also, everyone should be thankful for the Super Rich. I'm an engineer, and without the SR to buy things I design and build, I'd not be able to do what I love the way I love to do it.

 

[qwk]

First of all, if you're posting on the Tesla board I'm not talking about you. You're not "rich" for the purposes of my post and unless you have lobbyists and contribute vast amounts of money to political campaigns you have nothing to be ashamed of.

As for your talk of "opportunity", I don't know how old you are but no matter - you're too old to see the change that has occurred. I don't doubt your American Dream story. The problem is that you are simply extrapolating your experience to younger generations when those things just don't hold true anymore. The amount of debt in the system (public and private) simply negates the possibility of us growing like we have for the last 70 years. It's just not going to happen.

Like you, I worked my way through public university but back then it cost ~$7,000/year. It now costs over $32,000/year to go to a public university (in California - yes it's cheaper in other parts of the country but regardless, costs have far outpaced inflation in the last few years) and the costs are rocketing up every year (tripled in the last 7 years). You think a kid can make that mowing lawns or working in a restaurant? Not a chance. Kids are coming out of school with huge debt loads. And then they try to move into the workforce and there are no jobs - unemployment among young people is off the charts. It's not that they're lazy, they can't get jobs because older workers can't afford to retire. I see it in my current job when I have a junior position open up I get resumes from senior people that just want a job even though it's for half what they used to be paid. Kids today have it a LOT tougher than you or I did.

Anyway, my point is that the super-rich (again, not anyone posting here) have gamed the system so that it is extremely hard for anyone to move up into that realm. The tax issue I raised is Exhibit A - the last people who need lower taxes are the super rich yet that is how the country is set up. Those of us below the super-rich pay twice as much in taxes as they do so that limits our ability to move up (For the record I'm a flat-tax advocate - everyone pays x% of every dollar you make, no deductions). If you can't see that the deck is stacked against you then all I can say is ignorance is bliss.

Exactly!

To add further to this, the days of getting a good paying job and saving up to get ahead and start a business are almost gone. In order to go into business for yourself and be succesfull, you need capital. There is no way around that. Good luck getting a loan for something like this when you are young nowadays.

 

[vfx]

I...Opportunities are still out there, and the Internet generation has it even better in my opinion. There's access to information that previous generations had to pay handsomely for. It's even easier to be an entrepreneur in many fields.....

Fields are different. A farmer, craftsman, reseller and service laborer are more the old days. Having access to computers and the technical aptitude the create the type of business you allude to (most people here) is a limited scope industry.

 

[Jaff]

Strider, herein lies a big part of the problem...Obama, the left wing press, and Democrats in general love to use the phrase "millionaire's & billionaires"...there is a VAST difference between the two!!!

Many here are millionaire's (not necessarily liquid)...got news for you folks that think someone with a million dollars of wealth in today's world is rich....................they ain't!!!

It is a disingenuous for the Obama administration, the media, and far left individuals to continue to employ this jargon...imo, it shows one with a socialist agenda...

First of all, if you're posting on the Tesla board I'm not talking about you. You're not "rich" for the purposes of my post and unless you have lobbyists and contribute vast amounts of money to political campaigns you have nothing to be ashamed of.

As for your talk of "opportunity", I don't know how old you are but no matter - you're too old to see the change that has occurred. I don't doubt your American Dream story. The problem is that you are simply extrapolating your experience to younger generations when those things just don't hold true anymore. The amount of debt in the system (public and private) simply negates the possibility of us growing like we have for the last 70 years. It's just not going to happen.

Like you, I worked my way through public university but back then it cost ~$7,000/year. It now costs over $32,000/year to go to a public university (in California - yes it's cheaper in other parts of the country but regardless, costs have far outpaced inflation in the last few years) and the costs are rocketing up every year (tripled in the last 7 years). You think a kid can make that mowing lawns or working in a restaurant? Not a chance. Kids are coming out of school with huge debt loads. And then they try to move into the workforce and there are no jobs - unemployment among young people is off the charts. It's not that they're lazy, they can't get jobs because older workers can't afford to retire. I see it in my current job when I have a junior position open up I get resumes from senior people that just want a job even though it's for half what they used to be paid. Kids today have it a LOT tougher than you or I did.

Anyway, my point is that the super-rich (again, not anyone posting here) have gamed the system so that it is extremely hard for anyone to move up into that realm. The tax issue I raised is Exhibit A - the last people who need lower taxes are the super rich yet that is how the country is set up. Those of us below the super-rich pay twice as much in taxes as they do so that limits our ability to move up (For the record I'm a flat-tax advocate - everyone pays x% of every dollar you make, no deductions). If you can't see that the deck is stacked against you then all I can say is ignorance is bliss.

 

[strider]

Strider, herein lies a big part of the problem...Obama, the left wing press, and Democrats in general love to use the phrase "millionaire's & billionaires"...there is a VAST difference between the two!!!

Many here are millionaire's (not necessarily liquid)...got news for you folks that think someone with a million dollars of wealth in today's world is rich....................they ain't!!!

I agree w/ you. Many people here are likely 2%'ers (that's where my family is currently) but the point of my posts are that yes, with hard work and (likely) a bit of luck you can become a 2%'er, but it is extremely difficult to move into the 1% (or .5% or wherever you want to draw the line) because the elites in society have stacked the deck against you.

Maybe my tin foil hat is on a bit too tight but I think way more than the "left wing press" is trying to lump millionaires and billionaires together. I think the super-rich encourage it as it spreads the rage at income inequality across a much wider group. And I think politicians do it as they don't want to upset their largest donors.

 

[KenEE]

Exactly!

To add further to this, the days of getting a good paying job and saving up to get ahead and start a business are almost gone. In order to go into business for yourself and be succesfull, you need capital. There is no way around that. Good luck getting a loan for something like this when you are young nowadays.

Wow! How much further from the truth could one be! You can download development tools for any platform out there and write the next Angry Birds. For a less risky future, there are countless business problems waiting for solutions from anyone with average+ intelligence and a little resolve. And this is just in the space I'm familiar with.

 

[Doug_G]

I do think people here are a bit too pessimistic. Yes, the American economy is suffering from a protracted hangover after the excesses in past years, but that's no reason for gloom. Tesla is making a go of it. I'm sure there are lots of young entrepreneurs doing the same.

 

[qwk]

Wow! How much further from the truth could one be! You can download development tools for any platform out there and write the next Angry Birds. For a less risky future, there are countless business problems waiting for solutions from anyone with average+ intelligence and a little resolve. And this is just in the space I'm familiar with.

This proves my point even further.

 

[AnOutsider]

This proves my point even further.

How so? Said dev tools are typically free.

 

[qwk]

How so? Said dev tools are typically free.

Yeah, anyone with an average intelligence can design successful video games with nothing but free dev tools? Lol

 

[AnOutsider]

Yeah, anyone with an average intelligence can design successful video games with nothing but free dev tools? Lol

Where he quoted you, you said capital, hence me stating the tools were free. As for "average intelligence", well... Stranger things have happened.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The advent of websites like Kickstart and Itsy provided an entrepreneur unprecedented access to customers and "crowd-sourced" capital. Also, the VC and PE markets are better developed than ever in the history of the country. I would argue that it's never been easier to take an idea and run with it. (And, yes, I recently helped an innovator raise $12 million in venture funding, and we're currently working on raising the next $50 million. It can be done, if the idea is good enough.)

 

[qwk]

Where he quoted you, you said capital, hence me stating the tools were free. As for "average intelligence", well... Stranger things have happened.

Seriously, we both know that while possible, this is certainly not Something anybody with average intelligence could even begin to do. I was referring more to a brick and mortar type business.

I don't disagree that people can still be successful, just that it's getting harder and harder to do. Then when you do get there the tax rates are insane. If you don't believe me, look at the tax code from 30 years ago and compare it to today.

I can afford a Tesla, and I'd like to consider myself successful, but I'm definately not ignorant of my surroundings.

 

[Robert.Boston]

I don't disagree that people can still be successful, just that it's getting harder and harder to do. Then when you do get there the tax rates are insane. If you don't believe me, look at the tax code from 30 years ago and compare it to today.

Comparing individual marginal rates today to those in 1972 and 1982, as helpful computed by taxfoundation.org: We see that if you are married, filing jointly, the marginal tax rate at $200,000 (2012 dollars) was 45%; earnings above about $1,000,000 were taxed at a 70% marginal rate. In 1982, you hit the top marginal tax rate of 50% with an inflation-adjusted income of only $200,000. Today? 33% and 35%, respectively.

In 1972, the first $100 of dividends was exempt from tax, but all additional amounts were taxed at the marginal tax rate; in 1982 the exemption was $400, but above that was still ordinary income; today, dividends are taxed at 15%.

In 1972, corporate income (above $25,000) was taxed at a 48% rate; in 1982, corporate earnings above $100,000 were taxed at 45%; the top rate today is 35%.

So which part of the current tax code is it that makes success harder today than 30 or 40 years ago? Also, for the record, in 1973, Republican Richard Nixon was in the White House.

 

[qwk]

Comparing individual marginal rates today to those in 1972 and 1982, as helpful computed by taxfoundation.org: We see that if you are married, filing jointly, the marginal tax rate at $200,000 (2012 dollars) was 45%; earnings above about $1,000,000 were taxed at a 70% marginal rate. In 1982, you hit the top marginal tax rate of 50% with an inflation-adjusted income of only $200,000. Today? 33% and 35%, respectively.

In 1972, the first $100 of dividends was exempt from tax, but all additional amounts were taxed at the marginal tax rate; in 1982 the exemption was $400, but above that was still ordinary income; today, dividends are taxed at 15%.

In 1972, corporate income (above $25,000) was taxed at a 48% rate; in 1982, corporate earnings above $100,000 were taxed at 45%; the top rate today is 35%.

So which part of the current tax code is it that makes success harder today than 30 or 40 years ago? Also, for the record, in 1973, Republican Richard Nixon was in the White House.

See the problem is with the adjusted for inflation Bs. Anybody can twist and turn numbers around to suit their needs. It happens all of the time.

I could have bought a gallon of gasoline 12 years ago for $1. Now it is $4. If you look at the inflation rate in those 12 years it isn't anywhere near 100%, let alone $400%. I know gasoline is an extreme example, but it proves my point.

Look, I know many people(trade workers)who in the 70's made the same or better hourly wage than they do today except that everything costs much more. My basic point is that while the cost of most goods is going up, wages are stagnant.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The top individual income tax rate now is half of what it was in 1972, the corporate income rate is 10 percentage points lower, and dividends and capital gains are treated much more favorably now then 30 years ago. Those are simple facts that don't rely on inflation adjustment. If we're talking about entrepreneurial spirit, it's these top rates that matter, not the tax rate on wage earners.

 

[KenEE]

Yeah, anyone with an average intelligence can design successful video games with nothing but free dev tools? Lol

Like I said their are many oportunities in software development. If I'm remembering right an a person can draw unemployment for 99 weeks. (?!?)
Imagine what a person could learn with the internet and 99 weeks. If you're young enough you probably have someone that would put you up for some time and you can get loans for school and even (gasp!) jobs to pay your way through school. It takes work and determination but noone has a leg up on anyone else anymore with the internet. You can know what I know and vice versa. At the same time society becomes more and more consumer like and thus creates a larger and larger demand for people who produce stuff. Just don't be lazy, appy yourself, and success is easier than ever. (still butt busting hard, but easier)

 

[shark2k]

Hey yeah, so um, how 'bout getting back on topic?

-Shark2k

 

[qwk]

The top individual income tax rate now is half of what it was in 1972, the corporate income rate is 10 percentage points lower, and dividends and capital gains are treated much more favorably now then 30 years ago. Those are simple facts that don't rely on inflation adjustment. If we're talking about entrepreneurial spirit, it's these top rates that matter, not the tax rate on wage earners.

While I respect and agree with most of the things you post on this board, you are seriously delusional when it comes to this topic. Do you seriously believe that anybody who makes well into six figures does it on an hourly wage? The chart is as useless as you can get, but it does prove my point. How can a guy like Mitt Romney make millions and pay 14% in taxes, yet a married couple making just over six figures pay 30+%. I guess that is fair somehow in your mind?

 

[KenEE]

The people in my office are excited about the Model S. (They love my wifes Volt too) I don't have any guilt at all. I feel a little bad that I can't (don't want to) wait until next year when Tesla may well be making deals. (after they run through the pent up demand of early adopters)