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Gun control

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Drone Flyer, Oct 4, 2017.

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  1. Drone Flyer

    Drone Flyer Member

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    So the NRA gave the Republicans 54 million dollars worth of advertising while the Democrats received $265.00, that's right, $265.00 for the Dems.
    Since Elon Musk left Donald Trump's inner circle of advisors recently due to differences of opinion, perhaps it's time for Elon to step up to the plate and give that 54 Million dollars himself to the Republicans so they won't need to depend on the NRA's donations.
    This madness has to stop and shutting out the NRA would be a good step in the right direction.
    The 2nd amendment, as I understand it, says Americans have the right to bear arms. I get it.
    However, when it was written centuries ago, it meant that Americans can carry the weapon of the day, a pistol.
    Nowhere did it mention automatic sub machine guns. They weren't even invented yet. So, without amending the 2nd amendment, just make it illegal for anyone to own machine guns, period. This keeps the 2nd amendment alive by allowing individuals who desire to own a weapon to do so, but restricting them to a pistol type only.
    The world would be a much safer place and the NRA can disband, or change its name to the "National Pistol Association"!
    NPA for short!
     
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  2. kort677

    kort677 Active Member

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    you appear to be absolutely clueless. "machine guns" have been essentially illegal for ownership for DECADES.
    using your convoluted logic your freedom of speech here on TMC would not be guaranteed because when the first amendment was adopted there was no such thing as the internet.
    now butt your canadian nose out of US issues. I don't try to impose my value on your countries issues, don't try to advocate for disbanding anything in this country.

    your or anyone else's ill informed, emotional and factless opinions do not trump the rights enumerated in OUR constitution.
     
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  3. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Well-Known Member

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  4. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    The subjects of other nations will never understand the purpose of the Second Amendment.

    California magazine capacity laws only serve to make a gun range less enjoyable. It’s not like someone planning to kill 100 people is going to worry about magazine capacity limits.
     
  5. Drone Flyer

    Drone Flyer Member

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  6. Drone Flyer

    Drone Flyer Member

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    Maybe I’m not up to date with your laws but you miss the point totally of my post.
     
  7. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    The second post contained a personal attack. This is clearly not going to end well. Locking the thread.
     
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  8. kort677

    kort677 Active Member

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    Shamelessly copied from another source
    There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:
    • 65% of those deaths are by suicide which would never be prevented by gun laws
    • 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified
    • 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – gun violence
    • 3% are accidental discharge deaths
    So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Well, first, how are those deaths spanned across the nation?
    • 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
    • 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
    • 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
    • 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)
    So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.
    This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.

    Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, so it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equally, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.

    Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific?
    How about in comparison to other deaths?
    All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault all is done by criminals and thinking that criminals will obey laws is ludicrous. That's why they are criminals.

    But what about other deaths each year?
    • 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!

    • 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths

    • 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide)

    Now it gets good:
    • 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer in Chicago than when you are in a hospital!
    • 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers!
    So what is the point?
    If Obama and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides......Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions!

    So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple.:
    Taking away guns gives control to the governments.

    The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

    Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs.

    So the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe.
    The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.
    A military force at the command of Congress can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power."

    Remember, when it comes to "gun control," the important word is “control," not “gun."
     
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  9. James Anders

    James Anders Member

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    And what political party is in control of those 4 cities? Yes, the party demanding more gun control.
     
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  10. idleuser

    idleuser Member

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    Great statistics but what it doesn't include is the innocent people being killed by random gun violence. 59 people died in Las Vegas, that's 59 lives lost and hundreds and thousands of family destroyed. So the question is, are we ready to talk about gun control or do we simply wait until the next massacre to occur again? America’s unique gun violence problem, explained in 17 maps and charts

    You see, statistics can be easily presented to support one's thoughts or ideology. Lastly, I leave you with a Mark Twain quote.

    “Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.”
    Mark Twain
     
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  11. KJD

    KJD Supporting Member

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    Nothing to stop some jerk from buying a gun outside of the city and then driving into the city to commit a crime.

    I should also be able to go to a concert in any city and not be shot by some jerk in a hotel half a mile away.
     
  12. Sunshine State

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    Not to marginalize any loss of life but we could just have likely have been reading about the Vegas bomber if he had not had guns. The guns didn't kill by themselves.
     
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  13. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    Nope. As with so many things, the important word is "money".

    Such as the donations from groups like the NRA in support of politicians and officials.

    I agree that nothing will change, but not for the lofty reasons you suggest.
     
  14. Dax279

    Dax279 Member

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    I can just see all of the negative posts I will receive from writing this, but I guess the 59 people who died cannot comment on this now and so I thought I might just provide a couple of thoughts.

    First off, I am not sure what all of this statistical analysis is supposed to mean or support???? If I can believe for a second what you are trying to say, then I suspect that the changes that Australia under took a number of years ago were meaningless and the results of their historical actions really at the end of the day changed nothing ?

    I remember reading a book called how to lie with statistics and wonder if I should go back to read that book to see if I have missed something here?
     
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  15. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

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    I don't have strong opinions about gun control one way or another, but

    According to the CDC, the second leading cause of death of young teens (ages 10-14), teenagers and young adults (ages 15-24 and ages 25-34) in the US is suicide. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_age_group_2014_1050w760h.gif

    The vast majority of suicide attempts fail. But not with guns, which do a terrific job ending the lives of kids and young adults (mostly young men) who are having a difficult time. Guns are the reason young men die from suicide at triple or quadruple the rate of young women. Also, access to weapons is one of the main reason so many veterans' suicide attempts are successful.

    I don't think those facts will change anyone's mind on this topic but people should at least be a little more aware of the role guns play in what otherwise would be avoidable suicides. If you think the deaths of the young men (mostly) who kill themselves with guns is justified by other reasons to make guns widely available you should own up to that.
     
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  16. ThisIsTrue

    ThisIsTrue Dismember

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    Just how old is the text the OP copied and pasted here? Hint: Obama isn't president anymore.
     
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  17. buttershrimp

    buttershrimp Member

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    Texan here.... meaning, I too can bust a cap or two.

    But this whole gun debate is absurd, especially on a Tesla thread.... but it speaks to the horror of recent events. It's just so sad.... a woman at my wedding caught up in the event. Can't even speak about it.

    it's a shame we can't just all band together and talk about how awful the events are and try to make for a safer society that isn't so paranoid or polarized.

    Accidents, suicides and domestic violence deaths of loved ones are all far more likely to be the result of having a gun in the home....but that doesn't mean we don't find a middle ground on safety and asking gun owners to be more proficient to own.

    @kort677 , please be unique and stand up to the NRA where you disagree with them, and please urge other responsible gun owners to stop with the slippery slope nonsense and see the benefit of requiring some training and licensing to own a firearm. We need gun owners help more than anyone to reverse this trend in America.

    I find so many gun owners are reasonable and responsible and look down on other's not being well trained..... @kort677 probably knows exactly what I'm talking about, but I just don't understand why there isn't more advocacy from these folks to model proper ownership.
     
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  18. CSalemi

    CSalemi Member

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    Do the math.
    30,000 / 324,054,091 = 0.00925%
     
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  19. NewTMSMan

    NewTMSMan Member

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    1. 30,000 / 2,600,000 = 1.15% --> Percent of total deaths related to guns --> So every year 1 out of 100 people that die are killed by a gun in the US.
    2. You cannot subtract from the total suicides as there is strong evidence that access to firearms, and the ease of suicide by firearm increases the rate. Our suicide rate is over 50% higher than Australia or Germany and over 100% higher than the UK. Reference - https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/
    3. LEO related shootings are related to the population having firearms so also cannot be excluded. Our rate is LEO shooting deaths are 100 times higher than Germany, 300 times higher than the UK and 1000 times higher than Australia.

    Simply the availability of deadly weapons leads to more deaths from that source. You would have to believe that Americans are 5x more violent than Germans, Australians or Brits to think that without guns the rate of deaths in the US would not change, because if you look up the US we have a homicide rate of 4.8/100,000 people, but 3.6 of that 4.8 is from guns, while in Germany, the UK and Australia their homicide rate is < 1/100,000 people. Hmmmm, 4.8 - 3.6 = 1.2, interesting.
     
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  20. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    #20 McRat, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
    And yet you knowingly drive a car.

    Your car is more likely to kill my family that your guns are. You know this, but you drive a car anyways.

    It's a crazy world.

    EDIT - To tie it in, when you drive with bad driving habits such as speeding or lack of attention to your surroundings it is basically murder. Not in the US, but in some other countries. In the US we believe in the concept of 'accidents' when they are really no accident, instead they are a predictable outcome of a behavior.
    If you climb into a car with a cellphone knowing you will use that phone, it's premeditated since you are aware that cellphones kill when driving.
    If you worry that firearms are going to kill you, you simply do not understand your actual surroundings.
     
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