Putting handicapped parking in a supercharger spot is an waste of infrastructure. What is the cross section of Tesla owners and handicapped people, basically that station will never be used.
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Handicapped parking spaces at Superchargers
- Thread starter ord3r
- Start date
It's the law. And I think the folks that are legally allowed to use it would disagree that it's a waste. About half the folks that I see park there have a disabled plate or placard.
That is pretty much the same tired arguments that are made against all expenditures or infrastructure usages that are required for compliance with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).
If you want to continue to discuss the issue more generally--as opposed to something about this specific stall at this specific supercharger--it won't be off topic here: Supercharger Handicap Space
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Except with this charging space, it is taking up 25% of the available level 2 charging. I doubt any reasonable person would suggest taking up 25% of a parking lot with handicap spaces, they would largely go unused, like this charger will mostly go unused.
Nevermind I did re-read, and there are indeed 4 ChargePoint spaces.
I re-assert that it is wasteful to build ev infrastructure that 25% of it is dedicated to handicap. You may thing it’s morally wrong to think this, but I’d argue we have a stronger moral obligation to build renewable infrastructure first.
Makes sense to dedicate handicap spots once you have 20-30 chargers, not 3-4.
Maybe they should make the law so you have to have the charger accessible by both a normal spot and a handicap spot so that the infrastructure is well utilized and handicap spots are available for charging.
This turned into a thread? gg
While I'm in here, to better understand the other side of the argument, do those that disagree also think there should be handicap designated stalls at gas stations? If not, do you disagree that fast charging should be treated akin to refueling rather than parking?
While I'm in here, to better understand the other side of the argument, do those that disagree also think there should be handicap designated stalls at gas stations? If not, do you disagree that fast charging should be treated akin to refueling rather than parking?
This has been a rather common debate.
Before supercharging, many EV chargers were in "prime" parking locations, as it was cheaper to run the electrical from the biz to the near by parking spots. This made the spots heavily ICEed, and it put them on the same footing as a disabled parking spot.
Superchargers tend to be the opposite. They have dedicated electrical vs getting power from the biz, and to avoid ICEing issues and to make the build out less disruptive, they tend to be "in the back 9", ie far enough away that most people do not miss the spots.
The issue with this is that someone that needs the physical proximity of the disabled parking spot does not get it. And I would argue that purely marking a supercharger spot as a disabled spot is virtually useless. All supercharger spots should be handicap/disabled "friendly", ie having curbs with proper paths for wheel chairs and scooters, etc.
But your not going to have many supercharger spots put in with the proximity of a disabled spot, and if you did put in a special set of superchargers at a few disabled permit spots, they are likely to be ICEed most of the time.
One method I could see doing is to put the "A" and "B" charger of the standard V2 long distance charger, one at a disabled spot, one at a normal spot, and get the bonus of charging rate most of the time, but the V3 design is dedicated, so this does not really apply longer term.
The long term option would be the "snake" self hook up of the supercharger with enhanced summon being able to drop off at a normal disabled spot, and then the vehicle go and auto park/hook up at the supercharger, and return to a disabled spot for pickup on demand.
-Harry
Before supercharging, many EV chargers were in "prime" parking locations, as it was cheaper to run the electrical from the biz to the near by parking spots. This made the spots heavily ICEed, and it put them on the same footing as a disabled parking spot.
Superchargers tend to be the opposite. They have dedicated electrical vs getting power from the biz, and to avoid ICEing issues and to make the build out less disruptive, they tend to be "in the back 9", ie far enough away that most people do not miss the spots.
The issue with this is that someone that needs the physical proximity of the disabled parking spot does not get it. And I would argue that purely marking a supercharger spot as a disabled spot is virtually useless. All supercharger spots should be handicap/disabled "friendly", ie having curbs with proper paths for wheel chairs and scooters, etc.
But your not going to have many supercharger spots put in with the proximity of a disabled spot, and if you did put in a special set of superchargers at a few disabled permit spots, they are likely to be ICEed most of the time.
One method I could see doing is to put the "A" and "B" charger of the standard V2 long distance charger, one at a disabled spot, one at a normal spot, and get the bonus of charging rate most of the time, but the V3 design is dedicated, so this does not really apply longer term.
The long term option would be the "snake" self hook up of the supercharger with enhanced summon being able to drop off at a normal disabled spot, and then the vehicle go and auto park/hook up at the supercharger, and return to a disabled spot for pickup on demand.
-Harry
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
I like the extra wide spots, Also makes for finding the healthiest stall in the in lot since psychologically folks are less likely to use that one.
MXLRplus
Active Member
The idea of the community providing parking stalls that will accomodate wheelchairs, walkers, and scooters was grand.
The execution is horrible. Most people using the stalls have no need for extra clearance to access their vehicle. In fact, if you sit and watch a Costco during the opening hour, you will see that most the disabled stalls are filled with fully ambulatory young adults (20-40 years old) with the appropriate tags.
Due to auto-opening doors of Teslas and the lack of a 360 view screen, ideally all stalls should be handicapped friendly, but they PUT THE CHARGER IN THE BACK OF THE CAR!@
Let's see if I can get my walker into the frunk...
The execution is horrible. Most people using the stalls have no need for extra clearance to access their vehicle. In fact, if you sit and watch a Costco during the opening hour, you will see that most the disabled stalls are filled with fully ambulatory young adults (20-40 years old) with the appropriate tags.
Due to auto-opening doors of Teslas and the lack of a 360 view screen, ideally all stalls should be handicapped friendly, but they PUT THE CHARGER IN THE BACK OF THE CAR!@
Let's see if I can get my walker into the frunk...
DSolie
Pew Pew
Chargepoint chargers are NOT Tesla Superchargers and are under no control of Tesla. There may be local codes or an REA on the property that dictates that X many of dedicated stalls must be ADA Accessible.
The point of an accessible stall though is meant for the person who needs assistance to be as close as possible to their point of entry or feature that they are needing to use. With any charging station, they are all equal, all spaced the same, all accessible the same. As long as the handle of the charger is at 42" or less AFF, and within a 17" reach (I think), then it is technically "accessible" .
MXLRplus
Active Member
The thought was for wheelchair access. As someone who spent too much time on crutches, walkers, and wheelchairs, I wish they would have put the handicap stalls in the back of the lot. Then there would be one when I needed one.
I have had major foot issues most of my life, and have managed to avoid needing a disabled permit most of my life (including now), with a short period of about a year that I needed one, and that turned out to be a torn tendon (almost full tear, but not full, healed on it's own over about 6 months....). That being said, I would probably qualify for one, and most people would look at me with the "why did you park there" look.
That being said, the issues involved with physical placement will not be solved without auto hookup (the snake) and enhanced summon/auto park/auto charge/etc.
If the laws start requiring a certain number of disabled spots be supercharger enabled, or a certain number of supercharge spots be reserved for disabled use it would cause a fair amount of headaches in a lot of ways, and most likely not really solve the issue due to either needing to be parking for both EV and ICE (disabled spots), or X number of super charger spots sitting unused in a part of the parking facility that is really not useful for disabled parking.
I don't know what the "right" fix is for a supercharger, but I presume most currently work around it by parking in a disabled spot, using the facilities, maybe getting a to-go order, and then moving to a supercharger, and hanging out in the vehicle during the supercharging session.
And the reality is the majority of people at a supercharger are in the vehicle except for restroom use. Sometimes for longer charges going into a restaurant and eating in, but most of the time at least for us (pre covid) it was a to-go order, but that was because we have 4 kids, and it is a lot easier to keep them content in the model X vs running around a restaurant.
-Harry
That being said, the issues involved with physical placement will not be solved without auto hookup (the snake) and enhanced summon/auto park/auto charge/etc.
If the laws start requiring a certain number of disabled spots be supercharger enabled, or a certain number of supercharge spots be reserved for disabled use it would cause a fair amount of headaches in a lot of ways, and most likely not really solve the issue due to either needing to be parking for both EV and ICE (disabled spots), or X number of super charger spots sitting unused in a part of the parking facility that is really not useful for disabled parking.
I don't know what the "right" fix is for a supercharger, but I presume most currently work around it by parking in a disabled spot, using the facilities, maybe getting a to-go order, and then moving to a supercharger, and hanging out in the vehicle during the supercharging session.
And the reality is the majority of people at a supercharger are in the vehicle except for restroom use. Sometimes for longer charges going into a restaurant and eating in, but most of the time at least for us (pre covid) it was a to-go order, but that was because we have 4 kids, and it is a lot easier to keep them content in the model X vs running around a restaurant.
-Harry
DSolie
Pew Pew
If wheelchair access was the issue, then they could pass an ordinance (or update the 2009 ANSI 117.01) that requires a buffer between stalls. Don't make it a HC stall, but make them wider stalls (I love Costco!), or make a 60" hatched path between a few of the stalls). Downside to that is most shopping areas put in only as many stalls as required by code (stalls don't make $, leasable SF buildings do), so if you reconfigure some stalls you are going to lose a few, which might put them at the wrong parking ratio of stalls/sf.
The HC Stalls should be for HC and MX, so our doors can fly free!
ULEWZ
Member
At first I thought, why have Handicapped spaces for supercharging. It is only to give closer access to a store and you don't need to leave the space to charge. Then I thought, the bigger space that a handicapped stall brings would be advantageous for having the doors wide open, so I changed my mind. I have no problem with the handicapped spaces.
Can I get a simple answer?
When a space is marked as both EV and handicapped is it reserved for either or, or is it ONLY for those with a placard AND charging?
I just got a ticket by a security guard whom interpreted it as you must have BOTH. -So I found a police officer and asked him and he laughed stating mostly all EV stations are on private property and it’s just an excuse for shopping store owners to tow…
Then I asked, how would they tow if you are connected to the charger. We both laughed!
When a space is marked as both EV and handicapped is it reserved for either or, or is it ONLY for those with a placard AND charging?
I just got a ticket by a security guard whom interpreted it as you must have BOTH. -So I found a police officer and asked him and he laughed stating mostly all EV stations are on private property and it’s just an excuse for shopping store owners to tow…
Then I asked, how would they tow if you are connected to the charger. We both laughed!
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Throw that Mickey Mouse ticket in the trash.
Someone on another blog wrote that charging per California Department of General Services1
1: An EV does not need to charge every time it’s parked; therefore public and common use EVCS are charging spaces and not parking spaces. While an EV needs to be in a parked state to charge; charging, and not parking, is the primary purpose of an EVCS.https://www.dgs.ca.gov/-/media/Divi...hash=C9929A80D195299DF7FB1C3B78A589824305C79E
1: An EV does not need to charge every time it’s parked; therefore public and common use EVCS are charging spaces and not parking spaces. While an EV needs to be in a parked state to charge; charging, and not parking, is the primary purpose of an EVCS.https://www.dgs.ca.gov/-/media/Divi...hash=C9929A80D195299DF7FB1C3B78A589824305C79E
DSolie
Pew Pew
There is no simple answer. Most local/city/state laws haven't caught up to EV charging, but parking in HC Stalls have been codified for a long time. By default, if you park in an HC stall (that is properly marked to ADA standards) and do not have an HC plate/placard, you can get cited.
HC parking is always nearest the public entrance to reduce the amount of travel needed for an accessible person. EV stalls are typically put out in the boonies of a parking lot as not to take up the valuable quick churn spaces in the front. Having accessible EV stalls doesn't make much sense to me. On top of that, Tesla pedestals aren't ADA accessible regardless of how you mark a stall. Having end cap spaces that can have a little "HC Preferred Parking" or something to make a person choose an adjacent space in the rare case a HC person needs to park may be what is needed.
Bottom line.. EV mfg's need to come up with a new standard for signage that can be well recognized and adopted nationwide (even worldwide).
** In WA State, I am designing apartment buildings that are required to have EV spaces as well as HC/EV spaces. This question has come up with enforcement, and it defaults to property owner since it isn't a public access property (like a mall). As we are also the property manager, we plan on having those spaces be assigned to tenants, and any tenant that is assigned an HC/EV will know that if an HC person who has an EV rents, they get priority over that spot. Still working on the fine print.... **
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