If the Performance 3 is “15% quicker & with better handling” vs the BMW M3, then will the AWD 3 also handle better than the BMW? If not, why not given that aside from the drive system the only significant performance-related differentiator of the P is larger brake rotors? Well, ok, maybe the spoiler... How do we measure “handling” anyway? Skid pad? Body roll? Maybe a performance gearhead can chime in.
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Handling on AWD 3
- Thread starter D3xDt3Reaction
- Start date
I fully expect the AWD to exceed performance expectations of the published numbers.
Will it exceed an M3 in performance? I will say no on the track since the brakes, suspension and tires are going to be weak points.
Will it be just as fun as an M3 on the road … I expect it will
That said, we don't have full disclosure yet of all the suspension components, etc. of the P model.
Will it exceed an M3 in performance? I will say no on the track since the brakes, suspension and tires are going to be weak points.
Will it be just as fun as an M3 on the road … I expect it will
That said, we don't have full disclosure yet of all the suspension components, etc. of the P model.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind the rubber on the tires of the Performance version is going to be better than what the AWD will come with.
I am going to see if tesla will deliver my car with better tires if I bring them. Fingers crossed
playoutside
Member
Tesla Service will not mount any non-OEM tires on their rims. You're better off going to your local tire shop.
Good point - so if I mount the same tires on an AWD will skid pad, etc. match the Performance 3?
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Probably. We don't know if the P has a different suspension than the AWD. It probably has the different rear upper arms they sell with the 20" wheels. If those give the P slightly more negative camber that would be a small improvement in handling. Tires are by far the biggest difference though.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Two items may contribute to better handling with the M3.
The batteries are mounted much lower in the chassis than the engine in the BMW. The lower center of gravity always makes for a better handling and performance.
The electric drive line is controlled by a computer that determines torque at any given wheel. The speed of the two electric motors communicating with each other is far quicker than any mechanical torque transfer can hope to deliver.
The batteries are mounted much lower in the chassis than the engine in the BMW. The lower center of gravity always makes for a better handling and performance.
The electric drive line is controlled by a computer that determines torque at any given wheel. The speed of the two electric motors communicating with each other is far quicker than any mechanical torque transfer can hope to deliver.
TT97
Active Member
And when you upgrade to the 20" wheels, the service center will install them for you. (Although they are no longer listed on the Tesla Shop)
Objective measurements include pretty much anything the auto magazines do. Motor Trend, Road & Track, Automobile, etc... Usually includes skidpad, figure 8, some sort of slalom, a lane change maneuver, time around a race track, and some others.
Subjective measurements usually include things like willingness to change direction, steering feel, perceived body roll/cornering flatness, etc..
My guess that the Performance version will have different springs/dampers and anti-roll bars (ARBs) - stiffer - to better compliment/take advantage of the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. Could also include other things like revised suspension uprights with bigger bearing assemblies, beefier steering components and suspension links/bushings, bigger half-shafts, stiffer mounting bushings for front and rear suspension subframes, and/or many other things.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
The problem is the only way the Model 3 has to transfer torque left to right is by using the brakes. And my understanding is that the system in the Model 3 is not designed for increasing cornering performance. The BMW M3 has a limited slip differential (it actually has an electric motor to transfer torque left to right
).That's very unlikely given what we know. The wheel size is the same so there's no need for any of that. I doubt they'll even change the springs and shocks. You're right though that that's what they need to do to make it competitive. 235 width tires on a 3900lb car is not nearly wide enough.
This is good stuff. The challenge I have here is that Tesla has not advertised any such differentiators of the P vs the AWD. Since some individuals already have the ability to configure, why not mention differences like this if they really exist? Seems like it would sell more P models.
thelastdeadmouse
Member
I'm not yet convinced any change in suspension will be necessary except to accommodate the larger wheels or brakes and maybe lowering slightly. For performance driving you actually want the suspension as soft as it can be without allowing excessive weight transfer. If the car stays flat in corners and under acceleration and braking, softer suspension better allows the tires to follow the road better giving better grip. I haven't yet seen a number for the center of gravity for the Model 3, but it has to be very close to the center of roll compared to a normal sports car. You can imagine that a vehicle with a center of gravity at the same height as the center of roll will stay virtually flat when cornering, so if you could half the distance between these two points, you're halving your moment are and thereby halving the required roll resistance in the suspension.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
There's plenty of body roll on stock suspension according to Mountain Pass Performance who have been doing track testing (Vendor - MPP Model 3 Build Thread). I think there is some reason you don't want the center of gravity too close to the roll center.
The problem is the only way the Model 3 has to transfer torque left to right is by using the brakes. And my understanding is that the system in the Model 3 is not designed for increasing cornering performance. The BMW M3 has a limited slip differential (it actually has an electric motor to transfer torque left to right
That's very unlikely given what we know. The wheel size is the same so there's no need for any of that. I doubt they'll even change the springs and shocks. You're right though that that's what they need to do to make it competitive. 235 width tires on a 3900lb car is not nearly wide enough.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the wheel size being the same? I'm assuming you mean width?
~$25k is a lot of play room for simply "more capable" inverters and motors, and bigger brakes. We also only know what size tires were offered with Tesla website 20" Sport wheel combo, and not what is finalized for the Performance Model 3. Seems like stiffer springs and ARBs with revised dampers would be a no brainer to improve performance, particularly if the target is better than BMW M3 performance in more than a straight line. The 4S tires are significantly more capable than the 18" Michelin Primacies and a good margin better than the 19" Contis. Didn't the P (non-D) Model S's that first came out have stiff suspension setups? Its not like they have done it before. They just have a much more capable chassis now in the Model 3.
I think they may still be finalizing all those little details with things changing daily. The focus is really on getting production up and vehicles out the door to Canada until the end of the month. I bet we'll see a lot more come July 1.
Could be, but it seems more likely that the AWD is almost exactly like the P other than brakes, tires and wheels, spoiler, and inverter (selection and burn-in only). If so, the AWD (given the same tires and wheels) should handle almost exactly like the P. If not, Tesla may have lost some revenue due to people who would have configured a P but configured an AWD instead.
