Brando
Active Member
Rimac Concept_Two
You can read about torque steering with this 4 motor sports car. See about thread Rimac.
You can read about torque steering with this 4 motor sports car. See about thread Rimac.
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Handling: prepare to be surprised
- Thread starter KarenRei
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- Roadster 2020
The suspension can offset body roll , that should not be an issue. Jaguar does it with the I-Pace, a much cheaper vehicle.
The good news is the 1.9 sec for 0 to 60mph as this is about grip. If it can accelerate that fast, it can also decelerate that fast and ofc that's good for cornering too. Grip is gonna be about tires and downforce. Doesn't seem like they got a lot of downforce but frontal area seems pretty large compared to others and we don't know what they did under the car - we don't even know if the front wing and rear diffuser have any active parts and there could be plenty more than just that. Jokingly, they could even have fans under the car sucking air for battery cooling but not quite sure how would they eject that air.
Weight only means that you need to offset it with sufficient downforce so we'll have to wait and see if they did enough to beat others in handling but the grip they achieve for 0 to 60 mph is very encouraging. Latency for any active aero and suspension+sensors will be very important too and maybe Space X can help with that - assuming latency is a huge issue for Space X when landing the first stage boosters.
The good news is the 1.9 sec for 0 to 60mph as this is about grip. If it can accelerate that fast, it can also decelerate that fast and ofc that's good for cornering too. Grip is gonna be about tires and downforce. Doesn't seem like they got a lot of downforce but frontal area seems pretty large compared to others and we don't know what they did under the car - we don't even know if the front wing and rear diffuser have any active parts and there could be plenty more than just that. Jokingly, they could even have fans under the car sucking air for battery cooling but not quite sure how would they eject that air.
Weight only means that you need to offset it with sufficient downforce so we'll have to wait and see if they did enough to beat others in handling but the grip they achieve for 0 to 60 mph is very encouraging. Latency for any active aero and suspension+sensors will be very important too and maybe Space X can help with that - assuming latency is a huge issue for Space X when landing the first stage boosters.
Brando
Active Member
Here are a few introduction to downforces from aerodynamics: [I suspect only above 35mph, right?]
Downforce - Wikipedia
Aerodynamic Forces And Components: What Do They Do
As anyone finds better articles let us know.
Mass is nothing but a fundamental negative when it comes to handling performance. Especially at relatively low speeds on a public road. If this car is going to achieve a 250 mph top speed then it isn't going to produce much downforce either and again certainly not at low speed. Okay it could have some active aero elements and it will probably need them if it's going to handle well on a track with all that weight. Tyre loading could be critical too in a heavy car with massive aero loading.
I don't expect the end result will be a very agile sports car. Fast yes! Fun, probably but quite possibly tiresome too on roads with tight corners and quick changes of direction - like the old Nurburgring for example. To make it handle anything like a conventional state-of-the-art hypercar, it's going to have to lose some fat from those batteries. I'm not saying it has to match ICE competitors on overall weight because of the other inherent advantages of an EV platform e.g. lower CofG, superior torque vectoring, massive instant torque etc. but I think it will have to be much closer than it probably is today. We see this already with the Model S. It's a great car as a fast grand tourer, but not a true sportscar like a 911 or even a Panamera. It's simply too heavy to make it handle any better than it does, especially on undulating roads where you really feel the mass heaving up and down over every crest. Adding another 100 kWh of battery is not going to help any of that!
The new roadster will be an incredible car from a top speed and acceleration perspective, but thats about it. Unless Tesla makes significant improvements/changes on its approach to battery cooling, aero, braking etc, looking at the roadster from a "handling" perspective is somewhat lopsided. What I mean is that nearly every other supercar in this price category can lap road courses repeatedly without overheating batteries (or engines). No Tesla to date has demonstrated a
The new roadster will be an incredible car from a top speed and acceleration perspective, but that's about it. Unless Tesla makes significant improvements/changes on its approach to battery cooling, aero, braking etc, looking at the roadster from a "handling" perspective is somewhat lopsided. What I mean is that nearly every other supercar in this price category can lap road courses repeatedly without overheating batteries (or engines). Nearly every other "supercar" can go to the Nurburgring and put down a low 7min/high 6 min number. No Tesla to date has demonstrated an ability to be remotely track worthy, let alone be a track star, which is arguably the whole poiont of having "good handling". Add the fact that its missing active aero or any true aero kit in its current concoction and it continues to look like road course worthiness is not one of the primary purposes of this vehicle. IMHO, Elon needs to wake up and realize that the Germans are all launching cars that claim to have this issue nipped within the next 2-3 years. Im not saying the Roadster isnt going to be impressive, but its not ready to truly take on Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc.
Brando
Active Member
I really miss driving at the Nurburgring. I'm sure ALL supercar owners enjoy their weekend drives at the ring [race track of your choice] just ask any of them at the next coffee & cars event. Wonder where electric cars will be after next 100 years of development? reminder: ICE cars will then have 200 years of development and electrics will never catch up. Will they? </sarcasm>
side note: Cars have many transportation uses. Racing is just one of them. Few race off the showroom cars.
as @Smokin points out: "road course worthiness is not one of the primary purposes of this vehicle."
seriously very few supercar owners have ever driven a race track - and when they do they are often not qualified to handle all the performance these cars offer. Many YouTubes videos
May I suggest search on YouTube: performance car fails
loads of fun
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I agree that the "standard" luxury car or sports car owner doesnt track their car. Id argue that a notable amount of supercar owners do track their car. While many Porsche GT owners dont track their cars, its fairly safe to say that many do. when compared with a M3, or AMG mercedes, Id say that a disproportionately high % of McLaren and Ferrari owners track their cars. I tracked my Viper ACR and have tracked my McLaren. Key point being that it is arguable that a large portion of deep-pocketed "hard core enthusiasts" - the kind of guys in in the market for $200K+ cars generally expect track records. There is a reason why the Viper owners crowd funded Nurburgring attempts. There is a reason why FCA executives sent the Viper ACR to nearly every track in the country to set 13 track records. There is a reason why there is a waiting list a mile long for a Porsche GT3, GT3RS, GT2RS. There is a reason why GM sent the new ZR1 to Road Atlanta to beat the Ford GT and subsequently to the Nurburgring. Maybe the electric car or "green" crowd doesnt care about these stats, but id argue that road course capabilities are table-stake credentials to truly be competitive in this market segment.
I agree that the new Roadster probably won't make a great track car for all the obvious reasons, but I don't think that's the point with electric cars. It's more about making the ultimate road car, which I'm not sure about either given the battery weight! Of course these things will improve with time and then the tables might well turn. But if I was looking for a track day weapon today I'd probably choose a Porsche GT3 and for regular road driving something a little more comfortable. I'm actually considering a BMW i8 for mixed road use which looks like it could be fun with those skinny tyres and relatively low weight. Again not a track car by any means, but by all accounts they handle very nicely on the road and a bit different to the rest of the herd.
Brando
Active Member
@Peteski , @Smokin :
Question: Would a supercar "track buyer" think the Roadster is a track capable car? I suspect those people are well aware of the shortcomings of electric car on race tracks. Isn't that true?
In other words; did you read something that makes you think that Elon is ignorant of these limitations? or buyers might be duped?
I suspect, even with these limitations, the Roadster will sell just fine. And some moroan will provide us with a fine Roadster fail video clip.
[even more likely, some SuperCar ICE car will have a dramatic failure trying to beat a Roadster in drag type race.]
thanks for your thoughts/insights to this market niche
Question: Would a supercar "track buyer" think the Roadster is a track capable car? I suspect those people are well aware of the shortcomings of electric car on race tracks. Isn't that true?
In other words; did you read something that makes you think that Elon is ignorant of these limitations? or buyers might be duped?
I suspect, even with these limitations, the Roadster will sell just fine. And some moroan will provide us with a fine Roadster fail video clip.
[even more likely, some SuperCar ICE car will have a dramatic failure trying to beat a Roadster in drag type race.]
thanks for your thoughts/insights to this market niche
IME the average supercar "track buyer" knows very little about EVs and probably isn't interested in them anyway at this point. That will change over time as performance EVs become more mainstream, but as of today most people I know are pretty ignorant of their limitations and strong points alike. Most petrolheads are not into EVs and would certainly not consider buying one as a track day toy!
I cant speak on behalf of all supercar buyers, but I can say that my circle of friends do care- a lot. It doesnt mean it wont sell, but I do think it does mean that it may not have the long term provenance once there is a larger presence of track-capable offerings in the marketplace. For now, I think most supercar owners will be somewhat interested, but I wonder if this is VERY short lived. As an example McLaren and Ferrari have all announced that they will have an all-electric offering of a supercar within the next few years. This is VERY close timing to the Roadster launch. As we all know, porsche is launching the Mission-e (taycan?) platform next year and has been boasting track capabilities while mocking the lackluster track capabilites of our Teslas. I HIGHLY doubt Elon is ignorant of these limitations, but my guess is that his gamble is that he can launch something (roadster) with exemplary straight line credentials and capture enough buyers to have a credible "halo car" for the brand. With Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari, and new entrants like Rimac nipping at the heels, I do think he will be challenged heavily at the $200K+ price point.
I think this is debatable. My bet is that many of us who have bought P85DL, P90DL, P100DL cars bought them because of their capabilities - that most of us willing to spend >$100K on a commuter were/are petrolheads that are also early adopters of technology. Basically Im saying that its debatable whether petrolheads are into EV's. Personally, I was well aware of Tesla's track day shortcomings when I got my MS, but I bought it to replace my 7 Series, not my McLaren. I could care less if I am "zero emissions", but do recognize that the MS, even with its shortcomings, is very good at MANY things that other cars cannot do today. With that, I still think the Roadster will sell well, maybe even pull a premium in the second hand market at launch but I also think it will struggle once Ferrari, McLaren, Rimac, and Porsche have offerings in this space.
Well I was talking about "track buyers" really. I'm a big petrolhead myself, but much prefer EVs for performance road use but wouldn't entertain one as a track day toy given the current tech limitations. I doubt the new Roadster will change that significantly with its huge heavy battery. Track days will be ruled by ICE supercars and the odd PHEV for quite a few more years I believe. For any road use ICE is pretty much dead for me already after driving a Tesla for 6 months! Maybe a PHEV sportscar like the i8 would be a lot of fun on the road (600 kg lighter than a Model S) and maybe okay for the odd casual track day?
I keep seeing mention of the Model S overheating, it's a 2012 design and nothing to do with the new Roadster. The Model 3 reportedly does not overheat. My Model S replaced my Pantera (much modified) and the S is quicker and faster at all times except that third lap and beyond at Laguna Seca. I am really looking forward to the "struggle" between the exotics.
For me it's primarily the weight penalty, not the cooling issues. Although the latter could possibly be an issue too for someone wanting to do more than a few laps. Your S might be quicker than a Pantera (I'd be shocked if it wasn't!) but it's not going to hang on to a well driven modern 911 or similar, even if the cooling did stand up. It's simply giving away too much weight.
Brando
Active Member
Perhaps future "electric car tuners" will calculate the needed energy for a track event and remove as many batteries as they dare to just finish the track event? My ignorance: What is needed for "maximum performance - acceleration" as I suspect a low battery charge has less peak out put? right? So perhaps weight problem can only be addressed with usual techniques - make it smaller.
excuse my rambling,
thanks for your thoughts on this market niche
excuse my rambling,
thanks for your thoughts on this market niche
Peteski
A quote from the Nurburgring 2014 Model S run referring to overheating "However, before it did it was able to keep a GT3 RS going full chat, within shouting distance (at the 2:00 mark) far longer than any 4,700lb sedan has a right to." On the street where we have to hold back, the contest is much closer than you might imagine.
A quote from the Nurburgring 2014 Model S run referring to overheating "However, before it did it was able to keep a GT3 RS going full chat, within shouting distance (at the 2:00 mark) far longer than any 4,700lb sedan has a right to." On the street where we have to hold back, the contest is much closer than you might imagine.
I saw that, but who was driving the GT3 RS? As much as I love the Model S as a road car, as a track weapon it's simply too heavy and a well driven GT3 RS would be long gone.
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