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Hands on Steerting Wheel During AP - By law or by Tesla?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by rinconryder, Oct 2, 2017.

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  1. rinconryder

    rinconryder Member

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    Was just thinking about this. Is the requirement that you keep your hands on the steering wheel during AP because of laws or Tesla worried about liability? If it is the later I think it would be totally reasonable to only require it above 10 MPH. If the car were doing something dangerous in that situation a driver could easily react to correct the behavior. Then again maybe they don't want people just straight going to sleep.
     
  2. jeffro01

    jeffro01 Active Member

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    Long story short, irresponsible behavior.

    Jeff
     
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  3. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    Tesla's position has been: Driver is responsible.

    However, when Elon saw on youtube that drivers climbed out of driver's seat and let the car drive without a driver, Tesla tightened up the nanny system.

    However, that seemed not to be enough so in later half of 2016, Tesla tightened up the nanny system even more to current level.

    I think Tesla trusts that if I got a driver license, I should be trusted to competently drive a car so it only implemented stricter nanny system if that trust is compromised.

    That is why you can still use Autopilot in non-designated road conditions such as local streets and highways that have intersections.

    Autopilot and GM Super Cruise are designed for "limited-access roads" only where there should only be on-ramps and off-ramps and physical median.

    However, GM does not trust its drivers and the system is disabled for local streets.

    Sure, worrying about liability is there but I think Tesla cares more about its drivers' freedom and judgement as well.
     
  4. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    Respectfully, because of common sense.

    Off-highway, AP2 has violently jerked the wheel at lower speeds, would have driven into a post-intersection median/raised curb area, and can't stay centered in any lane safely under multiple conditions. And that's just in the past month, with the latter 2 cases being a more or less daily experience.

    On highways, although I've had varying opinions about this in the past, unless and until AP2 ever improves, having a hand on the wheel is just a Good Idea more often than not especially during long drives.

    Some manufacturer is going to deliver L3, L4, and L5 autonomous driving and not just up to 37mph under vanilla conditions. I hope it is Tesla, both as a shareholder, as an owner, and just because it would be sad for them to squander their hugely dominant lead with regard to infrastructure, for starters.

    Speaking of which, I've met 2 Chevy Bolt owners in the past 2 days. More power to them and Steve Wozniak (who has a Model S and a Bolt - the latter for in-town use). But until the CCS standard proliferates (which is what I presume the port is directly below the Bolt's J-1772), that car is for all practical purposes a LVO (local vehicle only) and therefore *not* in the same league as a Tesla no matter how autonomous it is or is not. I expect both of those Bolt owners to become CPO Tesla Model S/X owners in the fullness of time, btw.
     
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  5. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    Considering the NHTSA criticized Tesla’s v7.1 hands on wheel nags as insufficient.... it’s clear that Tesla would get in more trouble if they had any less nagging.

    But you should really remain vigilant and not complacent when using Autopilot. A situation can turn dangerous and require intervention with little advance notice.
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if there are statewide laws for hand on wheels (probably not, given supercruise will be hands free and I don't believe they said there are exceptions). It's Tesla's method of detecting if driver is paying attention (which as others put it, NHTSA felt was necessary, although there are no specific laws/rules for it). Absent of other methods of doing so, hands will be required on wheels.
     
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  7. futurem3owner

    futurem3owner 2017 90D

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    I think it would be better if Tesla is able to integrate Porsche Mission E's eye-tracking feature to monitor driver's alertness. Especially when you have an interior camera with the latest AP2.5 suite and EAP becomes more advanced.
     
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  8. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    #8 Canuck, Oct 2, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
    The "Motor Vehicle Act" or equivalent legislation in all states and provinces require the driver to have the primary responsibility to drive and maintain constant control of the vehicle. That is why Tesla must have a nag in order to comply with the law. A driver facing camera (that AP2.5 provides?) might eliminate the hands on wheel nag, if the camera is satisfied the driver is paying attention, since no laws require drivers to keep their hands on the wheel.

    FSD laws are only now being drafted and there's a number of articles on the net that explain the legislative and regulatory process required for approval. Come Thursday we'll know a lot more...

    U.S. Senators Say They've Reached a Deal on Self-Driving Car Legislation
     
  9. boonedocks

    boonedocks Member

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    In my cars case keeping my hands on the steering wheel is a safety issue not a law or Tesla. Simply put, I don't trust it!! My old AP1.....totally let it drive as long as it would go with a slight jiggle here and there to let it know I was still present.
     
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  10. 12Pack

    12Pack Member

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    I thought it was implemented after the fatality - when it became clear the driver was not paying attention.
     
  11. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    many states do have laws on the books requiring that hands be on the steering wheel, these are old laws from long before AP was even a possibility, that said I think that those laws were rarely enforced.
     
  12. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    no, there were nags from day 1, after that incident the algos were changed forcing more nags.
     
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  13. SomeJoe7777

    SomeJoe7777 Marginally-Known Member

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    The original AP1 autosteer release (7.0) only had nags under certain road conditions where the system had lower confidence, and during tighter turns. There were no nags based on elapsed time.

    Since then, the following restrictions were added in various software releases. This may not be a complete list, and they're in rough chronological order based on my memory:
    • Driver's seat must be occupied with seat belt fastened. (Added in a later 7.0 release).
    • Nags based on elapsed time (3:00 minutes when not following another car above 45 MPH, 5:00 minutes when following another car over 45 MPH, no elapsed time nags when below 45 MPH) (added in 7.1)
    • Speed restricted to speed limit + 5 MPH on undivided roads (added around 8.0).
    • Timed nags below 45 MPH, around 10:00 minutes. (Added 8.1).
    • Progressive warnings (Hold Steering Wheel Alert -> IC Flashing -> Audible Beeps -> Take Over Immediately) added. (Added 8.1)
    • Autosteer lockout for remainder of drive if progressive warnings get to Audible Beep level 3 times. (Added 8.1)
    • Hold Steering Wheel alerts immediately if accelerator pressed while on autosteer. (Added 8.1)
    • Autosteer lockout for remainder of drive if speed exceeds 90 MPH while on autosteer. (Added 8.1).

    In answer to the OP's original question, no, there are no laws at either the federal or state level requiring any of these implementations. However, the NHTSA, who was the investigating body during the Joshua Brown fatality incident, has/had the power to force Tesla to change the system or disable it altogether. Most of the restrictions added in the 8.0 and following releases were in response to the NHTSA's investigation and Tesla's desire to keep the NHTSA from taking forceful action.
     
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  14. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    You are diminishing Tesla's failure here. What company in its right mind DOESN'T give equal effort and consideration to developing protocols and controls to enforce that the driver be in control and paying attention. If what you say is true, and Tesla just threw it out there and realized later, oh crap, people are going to abuse this, then we have a major, major problem in upper management at Tesla. No vehicle manufacturer behaves in such an irresponsible manner.

    Tesla basically has spent almost zero effort in designing reasonable, technologically savvy controls to ensure drivers are paying attention. At least GM, in development of Super Cruise, also developed parallel technology to enforce driver attention using a camera system to observe the driver. That's apparently a bridge too far for Tesla, so it relies on footnotes and fine print to protect itself from lawsuits while doing very little to protect the owner from a deadly accident.

    Any way you slice it, Tesla is playing with their owners' safety in order to save time and money. The Tesla faithful will dismiss the concern, as they often do, because it does not support their blind view that Tesla is infallible and every decision Tesla makes is the correct one. Personally, I can't wait for some real competition to arrive and to give Tesla a much needed reality check.
     
  15. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    GM is concerned about saving lives? Now that's a good one!...

    Report: GM part change with no recall cost lives

    How about dismissing your comments on the basis that they are so anti-Tesla as to ignore reality? Can we do that? Since that bridge you call "too far for Tesla" looks to be pretty close to me...

    Tesla Model 3 is equipped with a driver-facing camera for Autopilot and Tesla Network

    But don't let facts get it the way of a good anti-Tesla rant about how GM saves lives and Tesla won't use a front facing camera because they are too cheap and footnotes are cheaper.

    Your automaker idol, GM, made the long range Bolt. Please sell your Tesla, buy one, and go on their forums telling everyone how great GM is for saving lives and how Tesla is killing us all over here with footnotes and fine print. Then you can live happily ever after.
     
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  16. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    I just made an unedited 45 minute 40 mile freeway trip on AP2 with no system error messages and with only 2 disengagements.



    I think Autopilot works for many people and doesn't for a few.

    Tesla balances that concern by making participants voluntary and the have to decide whether they need to reach down into their own pockets for it.
     
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  17. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    Agreed *except* for the part about AP2 working for the many and not for the few.

    (Discussion of most versus many versus few deleted for brevity)

    AP2 does not work for most people off highway as well as did AP1.

    AP2 does not work as well for most people unless under the most vanilla conditions/scenarios (see, for an example of vanilla , your video - nicely presented, btw).

    Examples of how AP2 does not work as well for *everybody*:

    1. When it uses erroneous speed limit info from a database rather than reading signs as did AP1.

    2. Lanekeeping (Autosteer) is not as stable/reliable today with AP2 as it was with AP1 half a year ago.

    I’m glad you can drive without incident on a freeway for 45 minutes.

    How that can possibly extrapolate to “AP2 is fine for most” is... incongruous in particular to those of us who drove well over 50,000 miles with AP1 only to be presented with what served as AP2 just about a year into its release.

    I will remain excited for AP3. I cannot in good conscience recommend that anyone purchase AP2 as long as there are decent CPO AP1 cars left *unless they just don’t drive a lot*. In which case, enjoy the adventure.

    I suspect that many owners, being as a large percentage are in CA, *do* drive more than the national average and fortunately, are very patient people.
     
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  18. appleguru

    appleguru Member

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    I find the seatbelt requirement the most annoying of all of these.. one of the very useful features of autopilot (used to be) that I could engage it, take off my seatbelt (just for a moment), and remove a jacket/outer garment safetly.

    The new system is WAY less safe; now I have to try and play twister with the seatbelt when I want to take my jacket off :-/
     
  19. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    interesting, I don't remember ever being able to keep the AP on if the seat belt was disengaged
     
  20. appleguru

    appleguru Member

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    I could be misremembering, but the functionality has definitely changed.

    I actually think it’s gotten better.. used to just disengage entirely... now I think it reduces your speed and warns you?
     

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