Hansjörg von Gemmingen Roadster pack out of juice?

[Model S Man]

German article in Die Welt -- is this verifiable? Model S battery is different no?

From Die Welt, 14 Oct 2012

"Failed -- The Tesla electric sports car in the long-term test"

Range was never the issue for Hansjörg von Gemmingen, 49, with a 340-kilometer extended battery. The currency trader is the world champion of the electric driver: 244,000 km covered in the e-car. Since 2009, he drove the favorite car of the environmentally conscious Boheme, the U.S. electric sports car Tesla [a Tesla Roaster]. Now, however, the Tesla is almost exclusively in the garage because, even at maximum charge, he achieves a range of just over 100 kilometers. A new battery costs 30,000 euros. "That annoys me," says von Gemmingen, who expected (Tesla to feel more obligated to him). After all, he made his record run of Tesla advertising. ...

 

[mnx]

I would expect that in the Model S (85kWh battery anyways) that a loss in range that large would be a warranty issue. (8 years unlimited km's)...

I wonder if it was this guy: Twitter / elonmusk: Wow, a Tesla owner in Europe ...

Anyways sounds to me like the media is sensationalizing a little, I'd still be doing plenty of driving if I only had a 100km range.

 

[swegman]

The warranty for the battery only covers manufacturing defects. Does not cover reduction in range capability unless it is due to defective cells, not normal degradation.

 

[Zzzz...]

Model S battery chemistry was changed.

It is LiNiCoAlO2 cathode in Model S, while Roadster was using LiCoO2 cathode. Probably there have been changes made to electrolyte too.

So yeah, Model S battery is different.

Edit: Researching the matter, LiNiCoAlO2 do generally have a longer lifespan in comparison with LiCoO2. Types of Lithium-ion Batteries – Battery University

 

[doug]

Link to article:
Durchgefallen - Nachrichten Print - WELT AM SONNTAG - Motor (Print WAMS) - DIE WELT

 

[mnx]

The warranty for the battery only covers manufacturing defects. Does not cover reduction in range capability unless it is due to defective cells, not normal degradation.

I wouldn't think a 70% drop in capacity is normal degradation... I would think for that level of degradation there would be several defective cells in the ESS.

 

[pguerra]

This story, if true, is certainly worrisome and downright scary for such an expensive purchase. Thanks for sharing it! I don't want a $100k brick.

244k km (150k miles) is far too short! I doubt Tesla's warranty, even the "unlimited miles" for the Sig owners, will cover this battery issue b/c 1) it's not economically feasible for TSLA and 2) the battery warranty wording is weak (i.e. what does TSLA consider "abnormal" battery degradation?)

To be sure, there are other 2009 Roadster owners that have had far less battery degradation. Furthermore, we do not know von Gemmingen battery charging habits - did he baby the battery or did he just trash it?

But assuming that he treated the battery normally like the average user might (ie. not babying the battery nor trashing it), then as a group of current and potential future owners of Model S, we need to determine the veracity of this Die Welt article and see how it applies, if any, to the Model S.

 

[clea]

Could it be that to achieve ~240K km over 4 years he did a large number of range charges on a regular basis and it is this that has caused the degradation?

 

[ElSupreme]

244k km (150k miles) is far too short! I doubt Tesla's warranty, even the "unlimited miles" for the Sig owners, will cover this battery issue b/c 1) it's not economically feasible for TSLA and 2) the battery warranty wording is weak (i.e. what does TSLA consider "abnormal" battery degradation?

I agree that 150,000 miles is too short. But the S battery is a different chemistry, and has better management systems, so should last longer. I do disagree about the 'economically feasible for Tesla' bit. As I doubt very many people will actually put 150,000 miles on their batteries. I drive a lot and will probably only have about 150-160k miles on my battery after 8 years.

 

[spatterso911]

Could it be that to achieve ~240K km over 4 years he did a large number of range charges on a regular basis and it is this that has caused the degradation?

Could be exactly the case...

I don't think there is enough information presented to make a case for panicking about the battery durability at this point.

 

[dsm363]

He must have done a range charge every day. I agree that you can't directly compare the two packs.

 

[Oyvind.H]

The price should be lower than 30.000 euros for a new battery! The price is approximately 40.000USD for a 210 mile battery?
That said, with 340km range and 244.000km driven the battery has seen at least 700 cycles. Adding the fact that he probably hasnt averaged 340km it might be as much as 8-900 cycles (or maybe over 1000 as the car now only has 100km range?)

In comparison, the 300 mile 85kw Model S battery with better management, better chemistry and better range would probably get close to 300.000km on it before a replacement is "required". Battery age is probably going to make a bigger dent in my Model S` range than wear, as I drive 10-12.000 miles per year (probably more in a Model S

 

[dsm363]

He probably should have gotten the battery replacement option if he was planning on driving that much.

 

[Zzzz...]

The price should be lower than 30.000 euros for a new battery! The price is approximately 40.000USD for a 210 mile battery?

I saw LiFePO4 cells retailing in US for $400 per kWh (online, but cells were imported already). LiNiCoAlO2 is a more expensive chemistry. Add rebuilding battery pack fee and installation fee. Add premium market car service margin. Add European taxes.

30,000 euros for 56kWh should be about right.

 

[Jaff]

I've got about 42,000 kms on my battery in 22 months...my normal standard charge has dropped from 302 kms to about 282 kms... about 6%

This guy must have some battery defects imo...sounds like he has an axe to grind though...

 

[strider]

This story, if true, is certainly worrisome and downright scary for such an expensive purchase. Thanks for sharing it! I don't want a $100k brick.

244k km (150k miles) is far too short! I doubt Tesla's warranty, even the "unlimited miles" for the Sig owners, will cover this battery issue b/c 1) it's not economically feasible for TSLA and 2) the battery warranty wording is weak (i.e. what does TSLA consider "abnormal" battery degradation?)

Slow down there. There's no free lunch. The money saved over buying fuel effectively covers the battery replacement (and in Europe I'm sure he saved more than e30k based on their fuel costs). Model S is at price parity w/ its competitors (based on performance, not necessarily features like ACC, etc) so there is no "EV Premium". You should then save the money you didn't spend on fuel to pay for an eventual battery replacement. I always frame it that way when I talk to people about EV's.

 

[TEG]

Li-Ion battery degradation due to many cycles, calendar life, and other factors, is clearly a weak point in current generation EVs.
Maybe someday super-caps / ultra-caps will solve those longevity issues for the industry.
By the way, many LEAF customers have growing concerns over battery degradation as well...

 

[qwk]

Slow down there. There's no free lunch. The money saved over buying fuel effectively covers the battery replacement (and in Europe I'm sure he saved more than e30k based on their fuel costs). Model S is at price parity w/ its competitors (based on performance, not necessarily features like ACC, etc) so there is no "EV Premium". You should then save the money you didn't spend on fuel to pay for an eventual battery replacement. I always frame it that way when I talk to people about EV's.

This is what people fail to realize. How much would the gasoline cost be in a comparable car to travel 150k miles? If you take a two brand new cars(similar specs of course), and add both the electricity to power the EV and gasoline for the ICE to the cost of the car, I doubt that the ICE would be cheaper. Remember that the first battery is included in the cost of the EV.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

This is what people fail to realize. How much would the gasoline cost be in a comparable car to travel 150k miles? If you take a two brand new cars(similar specs of course), and add both the electricity to power the EV and gasoline for the ICE to the cost of the car, I doubt that the ICE would be cheaper. Remember that the first battery is included in the cost of the EV.

A comparable ICE car would get around 20MPG. At $4/gal you're talking $30,000 or $37,500 at $5/gal. Another thing to consider is that lithium-ion cells are expected to drop in price by as much as 50% over the next five years. At the same time, they are expected to get lighter. All of this points toward a less expensive and more desirable battery pack. Who wouldn't want to change it out in 8 years, if it resulted in a car that had even better range and performance than it had originally?

 

[qwk]

A comparable ICE car would get around 20MPG. At $4/gal you're talking $30,000 or $37,500 at $5/gal. Another thing to consider is that lithium-ion cells are expected to drop in price by as much as 50% over the next five years. At the same time, they are expected to get lighter. All of this points toward a less expensive and more desirable battery pack. Who wouldn't want to change it out in 8 years, if it resulted in a car that had even better range and performance than it had originally?

A car compared to the roadster gets 20mpg? Really? Any car comparable with the roadster is going to get 5-15mpg at best, driven to its potential. Who buys a performance car to just put around?