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Garlan Garner
Banned
That's fine. I gave the perfect example of the cars moving off the Tesla site, but......I just say....that's fine.
Maybe its true that Tesla isn't pricing their base model cars appropriately. I'll go with that. ( and I'm not trying to be facetious )
Garlan Garner
Banned
I believe where we differ is economics. It seems to be an overwhelming factor in EVERYTHING now a days. There are those in this thread and the MX thread that don't care about losing money. For some people dropping a penny on the ground is nothing - because they have millions of other pennies at their disposal. So trying to sell something worth 10 pennies isn't worth the work. Just get rid of it.
The same holds true for nickels, dimes. quarters, and for others dollars and for others - hundreds of dollars.
I am very thankful that I am at the financial point in my life where I'm not trying to salvage the price/value of options in a car. Absolutely...I can drop the price of my car with full options down to a car with no options to sell it. However without the options as a bargaining chip...I would have no leverage. Lets say I lose money selling options when I sell the car ...... so what? Give me a person selling a base car and a person selling an optioned car. The person with the optioned car will set the price for the base model. If the optioned car drops its price to the base model price....then what is the base model seller going to be forced to do? I want the leverage is all I'm saying. I use options as a leverage to sell quickly. I could easily say....I'll drop my loaded optioned car to a base model price if I want to move the car. The base model car owner will just have to sit there and keep trying to sell. The problem is that loaded Teslas are lined up for sale - floating right above base level pricing. See....the options are depreciating, not the price of the cars. The base model Tesla isn't depreciating fast enough to compete with the depreciation of the options of a loaded model.
Base model MX - $79K
Loaded MX - $140K
1 year later ( year old MX - same car)
Base model MX - $60K
Loaded MX - $80K
You can see this plain as day on Ebay.
Which is going to sell first? The Loaded MX of course. The person with the base model may have spent their last dime trying to buy a base model MX and is more than likely going to have a difficult time selling it for what it's worth because of those faster depreciated loaded models. Sure the loaded model depreciated, but who cares? There is nothing you can do about it. The depreciation is like dropping a penny on the ground for many folks. Others? It may break their bank. I understand that. There are MANY MANY people in this forum who are willing to take the loss to get rid of the car. Affluent people can do that. The price of Tesla cars are comfortably residing in the affluent neighborhood of pricing. ( coming down with the M≡ of course ).
My point is this: If you are "struggling" to get a MS or MX understand what kind of people you are owning a car with. I told my son this very thing. Do what you want to do, but understand where you are going and who you are playing with. Affluent folks play a different game. Don't be scared, just be aware. They can sacrifice thousands where you can't sacrifice a dollar. Do what you want...just be aware.
BMW8 and AUDI8 neighborhood. ( people who drop hundreds on the ground without having to blink - figuratively of course ).
The same holds true for nickels, dimes. quarters, and for others dollars and for others - hundreds of dollars.
I am very thankful that I am at the financial point in my life where I'm not trying to salvage the price/value of options in a car. Absolutely...I can drop the price of my car with full options down to a car with no options to sell it. However without the options as a bargaining chip...I would have no leverage. Lets say I lose money selling options when I sell the car ...... so what? Give me a person selling a base car and a person selling an optioned car. The person with the optioned car will set the price for the base model. If the optioned car drops its price to the base model price....then what is the base model seller going to be forced to do? I want the leverage is all I'm saying. I use options as a leverage to sell quickly. I could easily say....I'll drop my loaded optioned car to a base model price if I want to move the car. The base model car owner will just have to sit there and keep trying to sell. The problem is that loaded Teslas are lined up for sale - floating right above base level pricing. See....the options are depreciating, not the price of the cars. The base model Tesla isn't depreciating fast enough to compete with the depreciation of the options of a loaded model.
Base model MX - $79K
Loaded MX - $140K
1 year later ( year old MX - same car)
Base model MX - $60K
Loaded MX - $80K
You can see this plain as day on Ebay.
Which is going to sell first? The Loaded MX of course. The person with the base model may have spent their last dime trying to buy a base model MX and is more than likely going to have a difficult time selling it for what it's worth because of those faster depreciated loaded models. Sure the loaded model depreciated, but who cares? There is nothing you can do about it. The depreciation is like dropping a penny on the ground for many folks. Others? It may break their bank. I understand that. There are MANY MANY people in this forum who are willing to take the loss to get rid of the car. Affluent people can do that. The price of Tesla cars are comfortably residing in the affluent neighborhood of pricing. ( coming down with the M≡ of course ).
My point is this: If you are "struggling" to get a MS or MX understand what kind of people you are owning a car with. I told my son this very thing. Do what you want to do, but understand where you are going and who you are playing with. Affluent folks play a different game. Don't be scared, just be aware. They can sacrifice thousands where you can't sacrifice a dollar. Do what you want...just be aware.
BMW8 and AUDI8 neighborhood. ( people who drop hundreds on the ground without having to blink - figuratively of course ).
Garlan Garner
Banned
At first I was unclear as to how Tesla was able to convince so many "hundred-airs" to buy a $60K car - WITH NO MARKETING. They have no commercials or anything when a few years ago it hit me for real. Its EV.
The predominant class of people that is listed in all of my Solar Magazines and such ( I own a solar farm ) being environmentally conscious are "hundred-airs". Not that there is anything wrong with that at all. The confusion on my part was "Are they financially overextending themselves for the environment"? I suppose they might be.
Now I can fully understand why Affluent people do it with such ease - They can afford it.
I stood in line ( second in line) on 3/31 at the Chicago Tesla store and asked that question to everyone I could. There were some "hundred-airs" in line that owned base model S's. They all said that they were initially justified purchasing a Model S beyond their means using their "concern for the environment card" - which is why they were in line for the M≡. They have to get rid of their MS and didn't want to buy a Chevy or Nissan EV. I asked them - so how is the selling going? They indicated to me that they couldn't sell their MS because they would have to sell it for less than what they owed on it.......(see above post) because the optioned cars are priced so low.
I have a close buddy in the same predicament.
The predominant class of people that is listed in all of my Solar Magazines and such ( I own a solar farm ) being environmentally conscious are "hundred-airs". Not that there is anything wrong with that at all. The confusion on my part was "Are they financially overextending themselves for the environment"? I suppose they might be.
Now I can fully understand why Affluent people do it with such ease - They can afford it.
I stood in line ( second in line) on 3/31 at the Chicago Tesla store and asked that question to everyone I could. There were some "hundred-airs" in line that owned base model S's. They all said that they were initially justified purchasing a Model S beyond their means using their "concern for the environment card" - which is why they were in line for the M≡. They have to get rid of their MS and didn't want to buy a Chevy or Nissan EV. I asked them - so how is the selling going? They indicated to me that they couldn't sell their MS because they would have to sell it for less than what they owed on it.......(see above post) because the optioned cars are priced so low.
I have a close buddy in the same predicament.
I lied. I'm back.
But that goes back to your analogy of pennies, and you seem to talk-the-talk with regards to not caring about pennies, but based on the above comment, you don't walk-the-walk.
Also, price is leverage, not options.
Supply and demand.
You're proving my point for me!
No, we differ in logic. And understanding of supply and demand.
Completely wrong. Your leverage is price. You can drop the price of the no-option car and sell it FASTER than a fully optioned car.
But that goes back to your analogy of pennies, and you seem to talk-the-talk with regards to not caring about pennies, but based on the above comment, you don't walk-the-walk.
No, the market sets the price of the base base.
Again, no, market sets the price. If ONE person with a fully optioned cars drops their price it does NOTHING for the base model. If EVERY person with a fully option car is forced to drop their price (i.e. market), then EVERY person with a base model will be forced to drop their price.
For someone who doesn't care about pennies, you can just as easily trade the car into a dealership and not worry about leverage.
Also, price is leverage, not options.
Again, 100% wrong. The base model owner can drop their price too. Just like you did.
Supply and demand.
That's Tesla's CPO problem. That's not the market. Tesla is trying to get as much money as they can. Instead of looking at CPOs (for someone who doesn't care about pennies, you shouldn't be looking at CPO's in either case), you should be looking at the private sale market.
Isn't that what I said many many many posts above? So you agree with me. Great!
Again, not correct. Stop looking at the CPO site. That's not the market value of the Teslas. The base model depreciates at the same amount, options depreciate at the same amount (look at Tesla's old trade in value), if Tesla is trying to sell you a base model for more than the market dictates, it'll sit there and not sell.
Don't look at the LIST price on ebay. I can list a Model X for $250M, doesn't mean that's valid. Look at sale prices, you'll see that no one wants to buy a $60K Model X that's 1 year old, as that's an unrealistic price. If they drop it to be more realistic, then it'll sell. But the depreciation is still less. $140k-$70k = $80k in depreciation in 1 year. $79k - $49k (if I drop a Model X to $49k, it'd be gone in 3 seconds flat) = $30k depreciation 1 year.
You're proving my point for me!
That's a strawman argument, I will not go there.
We can agree here.
Also, to be clear (in case it's not), I'm not saying you shouldn't get a fully optioned car. Do whatever you want.
But the logic that a fully option car is faster to sell is false. And the logic that a fully optioned car depreciates less is false too. Paraphrasing your reply a few pages back "these are facts"
But the logic that a fully option car is faster to sell is false. And the logic that a fully optioned car depreciates less is false too. Paraphrasing your reply a few pages back "these are facts"
Garlan Garner
Banned
LOL - you are back.
Base model MX - $79K
Loaded MX - $140K
1 year later ( year old MX - same car)
Base model MX - $60K
Loaded MX - $80K
That's happening - Fact. You can't deny it. See CarMax and Ebay and the Tesla website.
See below.
Now to the rest of it...
I'm not sure what your point is... I made 2 statements, which one are you disagreeing with? Did you also miss my big reply in the post above?
Statement 1 - But the logic that a fully option car is faster to sell is false.
Reason - Supply and Demand. Just adjust the list price of the base car, and it'll sell in a heartbeat.
Statement 2 - And the logic that a fully optioned car depreciates less is false too.
Reason - Using your made up numbers, $140k-$79k = $61k in depreciation in 1 year. Are you telling me that a fully optioned car will depreciate LESS than a lower optioned car (i.e. base model $79k - $61k = $18k. seriously? Are you seriously arguing that a base model X would cost $18k or LESS?)
Show me links of sale prices, not list prices, and we can have a good discussion, also please clarify what we're discussing. Otherwise you're trying to argue supply and demand based on list price. That's now how economics works.
I explained the fallacy in your disagreeing with statement 2 below:
P.S. Putting fact after something doesn't make it so! Not fact.
eyespii
Member
I side with Max here. The notion that a fully optioned car will be easier to sell than a base model car only holds true if you don't price the base model car appropriately. Drop the price enough on the base model, and it'll sell just as quickly. Case in point - I have a perfect condition base 85D. If I listed it at $35k, it'll sell before I hit the post button. If I listed it at $75k, the other 85Ds with more options will of course sell first.
There's an argument to be made however that people who buy luxury cars simply don't want an un-optioned base model. But I think the tesla buyer is a bit different, as there are enough of us that care about the techiness/environment/EV-ness of it over opulence to make even the base models a worthy purchase.
There's an argument to be made however that people who buy luxury cars simply don't want an un-optioned base model. But I think the tesla buyer is a bit different, as there are enough of us that care about the techiness/environment/EV-ness of it over opulence to make even the base models a worthy purchase.
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I agree that there is a smaller pool of people who want un-optioned luxury (general, maybe not Tesla) cars as compared to those who want optioned luxury cars.
If that's his argument, then I can agree with this. But with that being said, I can either underprice or overprice either category, and my "time" to sell will be impacted regardless of options.
Garlan Garner
Banned
The only way to stop this is what I've decided to do. I'll have to take the high road. Enjoy.
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dgpcolorado
high altitude member
Regardless of what one thinks of it, if one lives in a place where AP would be utterly useless — as I do — it doesn't make much sense to pay extra for it. YMMV.The world is divided into two kinds of people: those who think AP is gimmicky and those who've actually used it.
STbreaker
Member
I suppose it depends on how often you take the car outside of where you live. If you do a lot of highway driving and road tripping, it's probably still worth it even if it's not so useful in your immediate area.
twonius
Member
The nice thing is you can always get it later. It's a $500 penalty though so it'd be painful to not get it and then activate it after the first month.
ArtC
Member
I really want a model 3, but my "itch" is getting stronger and my patience is getting weaker every day!
I'm thinking if I get a 60 with a couple of options(AP +??) and keep it until I can get the model 3, trade in the 60, it'll be about right. Not sure what the trade in value will be in 18 months. Anyone have an idea on trade in values? If it's more than the cost of the 3, do I get a refund?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I'm thinking if I get a 60 with a couple of options(AP +??) and keep it until I can get the model 3, trade in the 60, it'll be about right. Not sure what the trade in value will be in 18 months. Anyone have an idea on trade in values? If it's more than the cost of the 3, do I get a refund?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Model S M.D.
Ludicrous Radiologist
I really want a model 3, but my "itch" is getting stronger and my patience is getting weaker every day!
I'm thinking if I get a 60 with a couple of options(AP +??) and keep it until I can get the model 3, trade in the 60, it'll be about right. Not sure what the trade in value will be in 18 months. Anyone have an idea on trade in values? If it's more than the cost of the 3, do I get a refund?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I don't know much about the projected resale value, but I do know the S60 will be a combination of most of the cars in your signature:
Awesome acceleration (Corvette)
Efficiency (Prius)
Storage/Carrying capacity (Prius and SUV)
High tech/touchscreen/software updates (iPhone/Android in your pocket)
fsubrett48
Member
I really want a model 3, but my "itch" is getting stronger and my patience is getting weaker every day!
I'm thinking if I get a 60 with a couple of options(AP +??) and keep it until I can get the model 3, trade in the 60, it'll be about right. Not sure what the trade in value will be in 18 months. Anyone have an idea on trade in values? If it's more than the cost of the 3, do I get a refund?
Inquiring minds want to know.
One thing you can keep in mind is maybe getting the model S now. Keeping it for the 2nd generation of the Model 3 and then trading it in. From everything I've read and seen, the first generation S and X have had the most issues and as they have progressed so has the build quality.
