Thanks ! - that does put my mind at ease - Im pretty sure you're right stating that the PB is mostly feeling,rather than drastic slow down.
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Has anyone heard of a Tesla being rear ended because of phantom braking?
- Thread starter Kablooie
- Start date
Thanks ! - that does put my mind at ease - Im pretty sure you're right stating that the PB is mostly feeling,rather than drastic slow down.
zoomer0056
Active Member
Yup, thats the "feeling" others are reporting ... as a direct result from instant braking. Whether the car slows down "just" 2mph or 10mph is not the point. The point is the car does something unexpected that is not normal driving. It can be reacted to for sure but the unexpected actual braking is out of your control. That's what is unsettling ... loss of control .... at any time ... unexpected braking.
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israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Makes me wonder how many people, once FSD gets regulatory approval, will refuse to let the car drive because the owner feels a loss of control. Probably every BMW driver will refuse
Tam
Well-Known Member
Yes, 3 years ago. The report, including the Tesla Cam, is behind the paywall from NYT.
Phantom braking explanation?
I was driving on a state Highway this morning and happened to look down at the display to see a truck in the other lane. The truck blinked on and off a couple times then disappeared. The problem is there was no truck. I hadn’t recently passed one, either. The road was empty except for me. I...
teslamotorsclub.com
Tesla was Auto Lane Changing from the left lane number 1 at the speed of 77 MPH. It then saw the parked flashing tow vehicle on the right shoulder that was not obstructing any roadways at all, and it aborted the maneuver. Aborting the maneuver was not the problem. It was the deceleration from 77 MPH to 55 MPH that the tailgating car couldn't react in time.
NYT Video
Yes, 3 years ago. The report, including the Tesla Cam, is behind the paywall from NYT.
Phantom braking explanation?
I was driving on a state Highway this morning and happened to look down at the display to see a truck in the other lane. The truck blinked on and off a couple times then disappeared. The problem is there was no truck. I hadn’t recently passed one, either. The road was empty except for me. I...
Tesla was Auto Lane Changing from the left lane number 1 at the speed of 77 MPH. It then saw the parked flashing tow vehicle on the right shoulder that was not obstructing any roadways at all, and it aborted the maneuver. Aborting the maneuver was not the problem. It was the deceleration from 77 MPH to 55 MPH that the tailgating car couldn't react in time.
NYT Video
And to part of my point.... there's one crash from almost 3 years ago.... any more?
Pictures are worth a thousand words as they say, so this is a great singular "old" data point.
Now why did this hit the news....I am going to guess that the driver was found at fault on scene by authorities based on both drivers stories and so the Tesla driver had to investigate further to try and get proof to counter her liability. The other way it could have gone(but didn't in this case) would be the other driver was found at fault, heard about the Tesla being on AP and contributing to the accident and then they sued and got discovery on video and telemetry data...
Anyway, due to how rear end collision fault is usually assigned by default this is a harder thing to bring to light if it is actually happening regularly....but NHTSA is doing an investigation, Tesla is providing them with some kind of data and response...and in another 6 months to a year we may or may not hear anything about it.
I will also say that this was different than a standard PB incident that people have been complaining about here. The above incident involved a vehicle at least partially moving out of the fast lane causing the person coming up from behind to assume the lane exit would continue and believing that they would clear the vehicle based on the then current movement direction and speed of the Tesla, and then the Tesla aborting that maneuver and re-entering the fast lane in front of the overtaking vehicle. Mistakes were made by both parties and vehicle.
OncomingStorm
Member
while i would caveat it by saying there was no actual loss in control, only a perceived loss, i would agree with you. it's quite alarming when it does something your not expecting even if its completely safe. hopefully at some point here they can focus less on safety and more on ride comfort lol.
What about Subaru's EyeSight? I had Subaru's before my Tesla and they did it too.
mtbwalt
Member
While the purpose of the post is fishing for accidents related to phantom braking, it is worth mentioning that in order for overall safety rates to be assessed you need to compare accident rate and severity per mile that occur without FSD beta active, versus with.
But this gets complex because people turn off FSD / autopilot in hairy situations or when they know it will underperform. This obviously skews the data.
Still. FSD beta might be preventing 3 accidents for every one that occurs on its watch. That is a possibility that has to enter the Worth assessment at some point. Personally I think FSD improves my safety, because I mainly use it the 98% of the time that it performs well, and am ready to disengage in an instant.
But this gets complex because people turn off FSD / autopilot in hairy situations or when they know it will underperform. This obviously skews the data.
Still. FSD beta might be preventing 3 accidents for every one that occurs on its watch. That is a possibility that has to enter the Worth assessment at some point. Personally I think FSD improves my safety, because I mainly use it the 98% of the time that it performs well, and am ready to disengage in an instant.
zoomer0056
Active Member
Maybe, but it's skewed towards how people use it. Maybe the question should be "how often do you get into an accident with FSD when using it improperly ?"
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
I don't know of ANY category of accidents caused by FSD. But I have seen it attempt to drive right thru a deer on my trip home from Oregon last year, and others that posted it turning into traffic bollards on YouTube, but in these situations the driver (me) was able to grab the wheel and save the car. Statistically FSD is already much safer than NOT having it on, but as someone mentioned above you might not be so relaxed having to be vigilant for PB the whole drive. And the stats may be skewed because drivers keep saving FSDs bacon
I thought the idea behind this thread was how many accidents were there where FSD was doing its thing of stopping w/o anyone seeing what it's stopping for and then getting rear ended. This is also pretty rare according to the thread so far. According to Wham Bam Teslacam what really does them in is Hondas hitting them when they are stopped at a traffic light.
I thought the idea behind this thread was how many accidents were there where FSD was doing its thing of stopping w/o anyone seeing what it's stopping for and then getting rear ended. This is also pretty rare according to the thread so far. According to Wham Bam Teslacam what really does them in is Hondas hitting them when they are stopped at a traffic light.
The above inspired me to put it this way:
When it is said that accidents rate is lower on FSD you need to understand it as "Human driver plus FSD have lower accidents rates than human driver plus whatever hodge-podge of driver assist features is present in all cars". BTW lower FSD accident rates also contribute to lowering overall accident rates as well even if it is to infinitesimal extent for now.
Do not misinterpret it as pure FSD vs pure human driver.
zoomer0056
Active Member
Yeah, a car always has an involved driver. I don't think those accident statistics are for "pure FSD" with no human like Waymo driverless cars.
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Silicon Desert
Well-Known Member
side note. I am a bit saddened by the fact that some folks don't know the difference between BREAK and BRAKE 
Glamisduner
Active Member
Mine hard breaks like slamming on the brakes on the highway when your doing 80mph. I always have to hit the accelerator to avoid being rear-ended. I do allot more manual driving now given the softwares current state. PB seems much worse now, than even back when I purchased because it stops so hard now and all kinds of things can set it off.
Silicon Desert
Well-Known Member
I guess I am always going to be baffled why some people report this, yet I never experienced this hard braking thing after over 10,000 miles of using AP/FSD. I believe it happens as some people report it, but I haven't. On rare occasions it will soft brake a few mph for a couple seconds but nothing that concerns me. Hope they fix it for you folks.
Glamisduner
Active Member
Maybe it's my older hardware or maybe it's more likely in certain areas? I always get stopping for light in the carpool lane under one bridge, so it's definatly detecting something that isn't there, but now the hard braking in the recent versions is horrible... I have 48k on mine.
Same here , it’s not even a brake normally just feels like it lifts off the throttle
Have you tried reducing the collision risk safety limit? My T3 seems to panic less when cars pull out from side streets into the narrow lanes next to me.
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