Has anyone suddenly started hydroplaning in rain? [tires were bald]

[stopcrazypp]

It's not like the Model 3 grabs the steering wheel and steers for you (even though it could!) or can apply positive torque vectoring at the wheels. I've never noticed the Model 3 add power which would kind of be the next amazing step in stability control.

I was thinking the same thing, a stability control that can steer would probably be the ultimate one, as it addresses the root cause (driver overcorrection). The tricks done using wheel braking is still limited in what it can achieve in hydroplane situations.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

As someone that has raced a Model 3 in the rain and dry quite a bit, I'm not sure I agree the SC is more sophisticated. It's the same grab a brake on one wheel to correct the rotation kind of system as all others, which is pretty simple and limited. It's not like the Model 3 grabs the steering wheel and steers for you (even though it could!) or can apply positive torque vectoring at the wheels. I've never noticed the Model 3 add power which would kind of be the next amazing step in stability control.

Even in track mode, the Model 3 doesn't have control anything like a modern Ferrari that just lets you maintain a slip angle in their drift mode.

My impression has always been that what really helps the Model 3 is the amazing traction control, which limits how "out of sorts" the car gets due to excess power, which means the SC has less work to do, and of course the SC can kill power very quickly due to the high torque control bandwidth of an EV.

This thread is about road driving not track driving and while I agree that more control over power delivery and complete control over the SC would be nice in track mode when driving on a track, it's largely irrelevant here.

Maybe I should have said the system is more sophisticated for *road use* than most other cars.

Even so, a few weeks after getting my M3P I was on track in pouring rain and braking from 115mph in lots of standing water into a hairpin.
I was on Cup 2 tyres and this was with track mode V1, so not even as good as it is now.
Frankly, I was amazed how little drama there was and at no point did I feel the car was going to get away from me. That's good SC. TC was OK coming out of the hairpin too.

 

[tm1v2]

As someone that has raced a Model 3 in the rain and dry quite a bit, I'm not sure I agree the SC is more sophisticated. It's the same grab a brake on one wheel to correct the rotation kind of system as all others, which is pretty simple and limited. It's not like the Model 3 grabs the steering wheel and steers for you (even though it could!) or can apply positive torque vectoring at the wheels. I've never noticed the Model 3 add power which would kind of be the next amazing step in stability control.

Even in track mode, the Model 3 doesn't have control anything like a modern Ferrari that just lets you maintain a slip angle in their drift mode.

My impression has always been that what really helps the Model 3 is the amazing traction control, which limits how "out of sorts" the car gets due to excess power, which means the SC has less work to do, and of course the SC can kill power very quickly due to the high torque control bandwidth of an EV.

With a good AWD setup stability control / brake actuation shouldn't be needed to maintain slip angle.

My last ICE AWD car could maintain its slip angle all the way through long sweeping turns on the track, with stability control and traction control fully disabled. I had to do the work of using the brakes to get the rotation started, i.e. trail braking, but as soon as it settled into my desired slip angle (barest hint of oversteer) in the beginning of a turn, I could get on the throttle and maintain that slip angle + limit of grip all the way through.

That car did have a computer-controlled electromechanical clutch in the center, and the center diff itself had a rear bias when the clutch wasn't locking it up. So probably a big part of how it maintained slip angle was adjusting center lockup to effectively adjust front:rear torque. It didn't have or need any torque vectoring diffs, the front and rear diffs were just normal helical/torsen style LSDs, and they were enough to avoid any spinning wheels on the track. (It didn't do brake-based torque vectoring either.)

Maybe with a rear torque vectoring diff it could've initiated the slip angle under power, without needing to trail brake. If I *didn't* trail brake and got on the power mid-turn it would just understeer even more. Once I got used to trail braking though it wasn't a problem at all, it felt good and natural in that car.

An AWD EV with separate motors front & rear ought to be able to do that exact same trick of maintaining slip angle under power, by varying front:rear torque, with even faster and more precise control. The thing a stock M3P is missing is limited slip diffs front & rear...it might still need to waste brakes simulating an LSD (or just do without and limit power). Of course in an EV the better solution than an LSD, in my opinion, is per-wheel motors. The S Plaid is already there in the rear!

Maybe the M3P has programming to maintain slip angle in that fashion already, but if so I haven't felt it yet from playing around on ramps, it seems to always oversteer or understeer under power depending on what I set the "handling balance" slider to. It certainly can initiate rotation under power in a way that ICE AWD car of mine never did! I should really try 50:50 more though, that might be the ticket for maintaining slip angle. I've mostly been keeping it rear biased on ramps just for fun (probably not faster).

I love my M3P, but when someone comes out with a fast, sporty 4 door EV with quad motors, and software to take full advantage, I'm there!

 

[thesmokingman]

As a longtime modded Subaru AWD driver, I love the rain. It's the best time to get loose and let it rip.

 

[tm1v2]

This thread is about road driving not track driving and while I agree that more control over power delivery and complete control over the SC would be nice in track mode when driving on a track, it's largely irrelevant here.

Maybe I should have said the system is more sophisticated for *road use* than most other cars.

Even so, a few weeks after getting my M3P I was on track in pouring rain and braking from 115mph in lots of standing water into a hairpin.
I was on Cup 2 tyres and this was with track mode V1, so not even as good as it is now.
Frankly, I was amazed how little drama there was and at no point did I feel the car was going to get away from me. That's good SC. TC was OK coming out of the hairpin too.

But track tangents are fun!

I have very little experience with stability control, but so far I am also impressed with my M3P's stability control behavior on the street. Yes in normal driving mode it intervenes too early for maximum fun, but its interventions have always felt well measured and successful at stabilizing the car, never excessive or overcorrecting.

When I bought the car I was concerned about what could happen if SC intervenes while I'm also reacting to some slippage, but so far that hasn't been an issue, yeah the car is quick to calm things down (in normal mode / SC 100% on) but it hasn't overcorrected on me.


Edit: I don't see any performance benefit to the M3P's stability control though. As best I can tell it's just doing the normal SC job of preventing spins. So I'm on the same page, it's fine and good for the street, but doesn't seem like it will help at all with lap times at the track. (I haven't driven a Model 3 on the track though, unlike some of you!)

 

[tm1v2]

As a longtime modded Subaru AWD driver, I love the rain. It's the best time to get loose and let it rip.

Only thing better with a Subaru is the snow.

 

[gearchruncher]

@tm1v2 - What you described is a theoretical really sophisticated stability control. The model 3 doesn't have all of that though, which was my point as @Dangerous Fish said "The stability control on a Model 3 is actually quite sophisticated when compared to other modern cars."

Maybe I should have said the system is more sophisticated for *road use* than most other cars.

I agree track use isn't relevant here, but I still don't see how the Model 3 SC is more sophisticated than any other modern car. It doesn't steer, it doesn't add throttle, and it just corrects yaw rate with some brakes.

Frankly, I was amazed how little drama there was and at no point did I feel the car was going to get away from me. That's good SC.

Are you sure you were even using/needing SC? One of the advantages of AWD, lower power at higher speeds, and great TC is never needing it. That doesn't make it more sophisticated. I'd argue the most sophisticated SC's are on high horsepower RWD cars that really need it a lot.

 

[Ngpngie]

(moderator note) moved here from another thread this was posted in, because there is an active discussion in this thread created by this OP)
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I had a horrendously scary experience on the freeway during recent heavy rains in LA. My car slipped out beneath me and I swayed sideways +- 90 degrees off the direction of traffic. I have a model 3 red which is only 5 months old. I was going about 55 mph. However we have felt the car hydroplane going much less than 55 mph on local roads.

 

[Ngpngie]

My first instinct was the same as many of you - that the OP is unskilled and was actually *turning* the car left and right while the stability control system obediently granted his wishes.

But then I saw this video:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/rolt09

I've never seen a modern car do that even with the baldest of tires, and believe me, I've tried.
So I wonder if this could actually be a thing? Tesla's rear axle regen is much stronger at high speeds than any modern manual transmission car I've driven and while their traction control is vastly better than most fossil cars, the stability control is largely conventional. Therefore it's conceivable that the Tesla could be much worse at handling this type of tire/rain/driver scenario than most other brands.

This is exactly what happened to me.

 

[jjrandorin]

This is exactly what happened to me.

And just like that video title says, its a reminder to check your tire tread. It has nothing to do with "model 3s hydroplane".

 

[multi nyc]

I had a Porsche try to pass me because I was slowing him down. As he came up beside me he was facing backwards, white knuckles on the wheel, and when he turned back forward, he pulled in behind me as we drove carefully down the road.

Sorry I'm calling BS on the Porsche Story. In Porsche driving instruction, we are taught never fall behind to drive carefully.

 

[thesmokingman]

@tm1v2 - What you described is a theoretical really sophisticated stability control. The model 3 doesn't have all of that though, which was my point as @Dangerous Fish said "The stability control on a Model 3 is actually quite sophisticated when compared to other modern cars."


I agree track use isn't relevant here, but I still don't see how the Model 3 SC is more sophisticated than any other modern car. It doesn't steer, it doesn't add throttle, and it just corrects yaw rate with some brakes.


Are you sure you were even using/needing SC? One of the advantages of AWD, lower power at higher speeds, and great TC is never needing it. That doesn't make it more sophisticated. I'd argue the most sophisticated SC's are on high horsepower RWD cars that really need it a lot.

The Tesla TC is pretty damn good and reacts quicker because its direct drive. TC on super cars or any ICE kind of sucks because it's part mechanical and it is governed by the ICE engine. When a dope floors his Lambo and spins out at a light and crashes into your Tesla, you are just screwed becuase the guys Lambo cannot do jack about it because the engine is revved to 8000rpm. Yea it doesn't work that good, you still have to be a great driver. This actually happened someone here, maybe it was a McLaren I forget lol.

This thread has a weird disconnect though becuase some assume TC or any traction system can overcome hydroplaning. It cannot. If you're hydroplaning that means the tires are not touching the ground... no amount of TC is gonna save you till there is some degree of traction. Avoid big puddles, especially those sheets of standing water. And especially if you're running wide ass tires which Tesla's are generally known for.

 

[gearchruncher]

TC on super cars or any ICE kind of sucks because it's part mechanical and it is governed by the ICE engine. When a dope floors his Lambo and spins out at a light and crashes into your Tesla, you are just screwed becuase the guys Lambo cannot do jack about it because the engine is revved to 8000rpm.

Yes it can. It can stop injecting fuel and spark, which immediately reduces torque to zero. The tires do not continue to spin faster than the road surface if torque is zero- that would be perpetual motion.

The motor in a Tesla is still spinning 13,000 RPM when the motor is cut to zero torque too. A motor can be at 18K RPM and actually at negative torque- this is exactly what a Tesla does in regen mode. RPM has nothing to do with power output.

TC on a Tesla is better than on a ICE car because the bandwidth of EV control is faster than that in an ICE engine, but TC in an ICE does not "suck" and is still very good, but that bandwidth has NOTHING to do with the engine spinning 8000 RPM or it being "direct drive", which a Tesla is not (the gear reduction on a most Tesla drive units is 9.5:1).

Show me a video of a supercar spinning the tires with traction control turned on. Most failures in supercars are when you have TC off, or you over-drive the car and physics just wins against stability control and ABS.

 

[thesmokingman]

Yes it can. It can stop injecting fuel and spark, which immediately reduces torque to zero. The tires do not continue to spin faster than the road surface if torque is zero- that would be perpetual motion.

The motor in a Tesla is still spinning 13,000 RPM when the motor is cut to zero torque too. A motor can be at 18K RPM and actually at negative torque- this is exactly what a Tesla does in regen mode. RPM has nothing to do with power output.

TC on a Tesla is better than on a ICE car because the bandwidth of EV control is faster than that in an ICE engine, but TC in an ICE does not "suck" and is still very good, but that bandwidth has NOTHING to do with the engine spinning 8000 RPM or it being "direct drive", which a Tesla is not (the gear reduction on a most Tesla drive units is 9.5:1).

Show me a video of a supercar spinning the tires with traction control turned on. Most failures in supercars are when you have TC off, or you over-drive the car and physics just wins against stability control and ABS.

On paper it's supposed to work that way but its real hard for TC to stop an engine being revved all the way out. If there's tons of torque it only gets worse. There are a bazillion videos on the internets of these cars crashing on acceleration from a dig. I'm perplexed that you think differently. In the real world it ain't easy and all this TC is awesome on high powered cars is more text book than reality. From your response it reminded me of the Shelby GT500 vs a MYP, so hilarious.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I don't think this thread topic has any relation to traction control.

Tesla uses the same old Bosch stability control system as every other car. When Bosch detects rear axle deceleration slippage it will reduce rear brake pressure if applicable and it will notify the engine ECU. Back in the day my old BMW would automatically goose the throttle whenever I downshifted inappropriately on slippery surfaces (quite deliberately) and I believe most RWD cars built in the last couple of decades do the same.

Tesla reacts to the Bosch notification a little differently. On one hand it's a simpler solution - no need to goose the throttle to eliminate engine braking, just ease off the regen. But on the other hand, drivers expecting "one-pedal" regen force will be confused by the sudden loss of regen every time Bosch detects wheel slippage. So Tesla responds by shifting some regen to the front motor or applying the front brakes if there is no front motor.

Obviously this is much like classical lift-oversteer and in this way Tesla's stability control system is fundamentally different from any other car I know of, despite being managed by the same old Bosch computer. Surely Tesla must consider steering angle, lateral acceleration, and perhaps even available traction estimates in their calculations before suddenly shifting decel forces to the front axle but perhaps hydroplaning is a condition that sneaks past those checks.

 

[gearchruncher]

On paper it's supposed to work that way but its real hard for TC to stop an engine being revved all the way out.

Please explain how an engine creates torque when it has no fuel. Because an ECU can kill fuel on the very next stroke.

From your response it reminded me of the Shelby GT500 vs a MYP, so hilarious.

You mean the video you linked to where he immediately says he's "dialing down the electronics" and "using launch control" when asked if he's using traction control?

 

[thesmokingman]

Please explain how an engine creates torque when it has no fuel. Because an ECU can kill fuel on the very next stroke.


You mean the video you linked to where he immediately says he's "dialing down the electronics" and "using launch control" when asked if he's using traction control?

Maybe you should google what launch control means? You didn't watch the whole video, they tried just about every setting and trick to launch and failed. Maybe you're the type that just see's what they want to see?

 

[KenC]

(moderator note) moved here from another thread this was posted in, because there is an active discussion in this thread created by this OP)
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I had a horrendously scary experience on the freeway during recent heavy rains in LA. My car slipped out beneath me and I swayed sideways +- 90 degrees off the direction of traffic. I have a model 3 red which is only 5 months old. I was going about 55 mph. However we have felt the car hydroplane going much less than 55 mph on local roads.

Try to record when this happens. You know, put a USB card in the car to record the dash cam video, then hit your horn when it happens, and you get the last minute saved. Since it seems to happen to you even going slowly, you should be able to record it. That will help.

Also, take some pictures of your tire tread, front and rear. This is clearly a safety issue, if you're fishtailing, you should get some documentary evidence.

 

[fiveten]

I had something like this happens few years ago in my model 3. Tire tread was the biggest issue…

I was driving on the freeway and started to hydroplane…normally if I ever started to hydro plane I would ease off the gas pedal and let the car recover. When I was driving the 3 I was an autopilot and believe (but I’m not sure) that I had disengaged the auto steer function but the Cruise control was still on. The car then started fish tailing a little bit to the right, then to the left, then too the right, and then it did a 360. I think what might have contributed was the car kept on trying to keep the set speed…wish contributed it to start fish tailing left then right then left and then all the way.

But the main reason was my treads were worn on my tires.

 

[Sporty]

I had something like this happens few years ago in my model 3. Tire tread was the biggest issue…

I was driving on the freeway and started to hydroplane…normally if I ever started to hydro plane I would ease off the gas pedal and let the car recover. When I was driving the 3 I was an autopilot and believe (but I’m not sure) that I had disengaged the auto steer function but the Cruise control was still on. The car then started fish tailing a little bit to the right, then to the left, then too the right, and then it did a 360. I think what might have contributed was the car kept on trying to keep the set speed…wish contributed it to start fish tailing left then right then left and then all the way.

But the main reason was my treads were worn on my tires.

Does anyone know is there is any car metadata in the dashcam recordings? Eg, speed, if AP is on/off, …