Has Tesla even applied for a permit to test driverless cars?

[t3sl4drvr]

Today three companies got permission to start doing driverless rides for real in California. Congratulations Cruise, Nuro and Waymo.

When will Tesla join the club?

They do not have a permit to test without a driver in California yet. Anyone knows if they have applied for a permit in California? Somewhere else?


Permit Holders (Deployment)

As of September 30, 2021, DMV has authorized the deployment of autonomous vehicles from the following entities:

• CRUISE LLC
• NURO, INC.
• WAYMO LLC

(These companies can actually do real driverless rides in California starting from today - not just test)


Permit Holders (Driverless Testing)

As of May 21, 2021, DMV has issued Autonomous Vehicle Driverless Testing Permits to the following entities:

• AUTOX TECHNOLOGIES INC
• BAIDU USA LLC
• Cruise LLC
• NURO, INC
• PONY.AI, INC
• WAYMO LLC
• WERIDE CORP
• ZOOX, INC

(No Tesla in this pack of companies who have permission to have cars without a driver on California roads)


Permit Holders (Testing with a Driver)

As of August 25, 2021, DMV has issued Autonomous Vehicle Testing Permits (with a driver) to the following entities:

• AIMOTIVE INC
• AMBARELLA CORPORATION
• APEX.AI
• APPLE INC
• ARGO AI, LLC
• AURORA INNOVATION
• AUTEL US INC
• AUTOX TECHNOLOGIES INC
• BAIDU USA LLC
• BMW
• CONTINENTAL
• CRUISE LLC
• CYNGN INC
• DEEPROUTE.AI
• DiDi RESEARCH AMERICA, LLC
• EASYMILE
• GATIK AI INC
• GHOST LOCOMOTION INC
• HELM.AI INC
• HONDA
• IMAGRY INC
• INCEPTIO TECHNOLOGY INC
• INTEL CORPORATION
• LEONIS TECHNOLOGIES
• LYFT, INC
• MANDO AMERICA CORP
• MERC BENZ
• MOTIONAL
• NIO USA INC.
• NISSAN
• NURO, INC
• NVIDIA CORPORATION
• OPTIMUS RIDE INC
• PLUSAI, INC
• PONY.AI
• Qcraft.ai
• QUALCOMM TECHNOLOGIES, INC
• RENOVO.AUTO
• RIDECELL INC
• TELENAV, INC.
• TESLA
• TOYOTA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
• UATC, LLC (UBER)
• UDACITY
• Udelv, Inc
• VALEO NORTH AMERICA, INC.
• VINGROUP USA LLC
• VOLKSWAGEN
• VOYAGE AUTO INC
• WAYMO LLC
• WeRide Corp DBA WeRide AI
• XMOTORS.AI, INC
• ZOOX INC

Here is up to date official lists at DMV site.

 

[baldwin]

I think "FSD" still expects a human driver to take over at any time, so driverless may not apply to the system yet.

 

[diplomat33]

Today three companies got permission to start doing driverless rides for real in California. Congratulations Cruise, Nuro and Waymo.

When will Tesla join the club? They do not have a permit test yet. Anyone knows if they have applied for a permit?


Permit Holders (Deployment)

As of September 30, 2021, DMV has authorized the deployment of autonomous vehicles from the following entities:

• CRUISE LLC
• NURO, INC.
• WAYMO LLC

(These companies can actually do real driverless rides in California starting from today - not just test)


Permit Holders (Driverless Testing)

As of May 21, 2021, DMV has issued Autonomous Vehicle Driverless Testing Permits to the following entities:

• AUTOX TECHNOLOGIES INC
• BAIDU USA LLC
• Cruise LLC
• NURO, INC
• PONY.AI, INC
• WAYMO LLC
• WERIDE CORP
• ZOOX, INC

(No Tesla in this pack of companies who have permission to have cars without a driver on California roads)


Permit Holders (Testing with a Driver)

As of August 25, 2021, DMV has issued Autonomous Vehicle Testing Permits (with a driver) to the following entities:

• AIMOTIVE INC
• AMBARELLA CORPORATION
• APEX.AI
• APPLE INC
• ARGO AI, LLC
• AURORA INNOVATION
• AUTEL US INC
• AUTOX TECHNOLOGIES INC
• BAIDU USA LLC
• BMW
• CONTINENTAL
• CRUISE LLC
• CYNGN INC
• DEEPROUTE.AI
• DiDi RESEARCH AMERICA, LLC
• EASYMILE
• GATIK AI INC
• GHOST LOCOMOTION INC
• HELM.AI INC
• HONDA
• IMAGRY INC
• INCEPTIO TECHNOLOGY INC
• INTEL CORPORATION
• LEONIS TECHNOLOGIES
• LYFT, INC
• MANDO AMERICA CORP
• MERC BENZ
• MOTIONAL
• NIO USA INC.
• NISSAN
• NURO, INC
• NVIDIA CORPORATION
• OPTIMUS RIDE INC
• PLUSAI, INC
• PONY.AI
• Qcraft.ai
• QUALCOMM TECHNOLOGIES, INC
• RENOVO.AUTO
• RIDECELL INC
• TELENAV, INC.
• TESLA
• TOYOTA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
• UATC, LLC (UBER)
• UDACITY
• Udelv, Inc
• VALEO NORTH AMERICA, INC.
• VINGROUP USA LLC
• VOLKSWAGEN
• VOYAGE AUTO INC
• WAYMO LLC
• WeRide Corp DBA WeRide AI
• XMOTORS.AI, INC
• ZOOX INC

Here is up to date official lists at DMV site.

AFAIK, Tesla has not applied for a driverless testing permit yet. Remember, Tesla is claiming that FSD Beta is only L2.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I think "FSD" still expects a human driver to take over at any time, so driverless may not apply to the system yet.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Interesting that DMV shares this detailed data on test vehicles:

For each vehicle

• VIN NUMBER
• Annual Total of Disengagements
• Disengagements per month

Here is the data for 2020 in California. 2021 has not been released yet.

Will be funny to if Tesla would be forced to report disengagements for every FSD tester... Cannot wait to see that sheet

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla only tests autonomous vehicles in other states that don't require reporting.

By the end of the year they'll file the paperwork to deploy in California.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1345208391958888448

 

[qdeathstar]

Tesla isn’t actually working on driverless cars.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla isn’t actually working on driverless cars.

 

[qdeathstar]

View attachment 716576

Yea, because all the humans will be dead. That car is devoid of life.

 

[EVNow]

They do not have a permit to test without a driver in California yet. Anyone knows if they have applied for a permit in California? Somewhere else?

Tesla is using a different strategy. They have no desire to join the herd.

 

[diplomat33]

By the end of the year they'll file the paperwork to deploy in California.

To be clear, that is your opinion. We have not heard anything official from Tesla about that.

And the permit application process is pretty laborious. It will take months. So contrary to what Elon says, it would not be as easy as just showing regulators data that FSD Beta is safer than humans and instantly get to remove driver supervision.

 

[aronth5]

AFAIK, Tesla has not applied for a driverless testing permit yet. Remember, Tesla is claiming that FSD Beta is only L2.

Agree.
I'm still believe its possible, perhaps even likely that Tesla will get approval for a hybrid level well before level 5. A driver will absolutely be required but FSD will only need assistance for those edge cases where there is time for the driver to take over safely. Say 30-60 seconds. The caveat being the driver can look at a smart phone and be distracted, but FSD will be good enough to avoid any accident and alert the driver. That certainly seems more then reasonable on the highway for initial hybrid approval. If by merging the stack to include highway and city roads you get safer lane changes among other improvements you'd pretty much be at this hybrid level.

 

[diplomat33]

Agree.
I'm still believe its possible, perhaps even likely that Tesla will get approval for a hybrid level well before level 5. A driver will absolutely be required but FSD will only need assistance for those edge cases where there is time for the driver to take over safely. Say 30-60 seconds. The caveat being the driver can look at a smart phone and be distracted, but FSD will be good enough to avoid any accident and alert the driver. That certainly seems more then reasonable on the highway for initial hybrid approval.

AFAIK, there is no "hybrid level" in the CA DMV regulations. There are 3 different kinds of permits. The testing permit allows you to test L4 or L5 autonomous vehicles on public roads with a safety driver. The driverless permit allows you to test L4 or L5 autonomous vehicles on public roads without a safety driver. And then there is a commercial permit which allows you to deploy L4 or L5 autonomous vehicles for commercial purposes.

 

[EVNow]

To be clear, that is your opinion. We have not heard anything official from Tesla about that.

Would you say current FSD Beta is (aiming to be) L3 ?

 

[diplomat33]

Would you say current FSD Beta is (aiming to be) L3 ?

Right now it is L2. But I would say it is aiming to be L4 since Tesla is trying to get it good enough to handle driving without a driver.

I don't think Tesla is really trying to do L3. L3 is kind of a special thing where the the car can do FSD but has to notify the driver in x seconds to take over. Currently, FSD Beta does not really notify the driver in advance when to take over. It is more "take over immediately". So I don't think FSD Beta is aiming to be L3.

 

[Terminator857]

Tesla has no intentions of filing paperwork in California and likely won't in the next few years.
Elon said regulatory approval is not a problem in the U.S.
Plenty of states require little or no approval like Arizona, Texas, and Florida.

 

[EVNow]

Right now it is L2. But I would say it is aiming to be L4 since Tesla is trying to get it good enough to handle driving without a driver.

I don't think Tesla is really trying to do L3. L3 is kind of a special thing where the the car can do FSD but has to notify the driver in x seconds to take over. Currently, FSD Beta does not really notify the driver in advance when to take over. It is more "take over immediately". So I don't think FSD Beta is aiming to be L3.

But isn't it more likely FSD Beta will get to L3 earlier than L4 ?

Because the current design is to ask the driver to take over in case AP can't figure out how to drive. They have to start anticipating issues and code safe way to handle the car for x seconds. I mean in practice - when AP now says take over "immediately" people still take a couple of seconds to take over. Currently AP will also suddenly ask you to put the hands on the wheel when its confused (usually merging lanes and such) - which is like giving the driver an advance warning.

 

[diplomat33]

But isn't it more likely FSD Beta will get to L3 earlier than L4 ?

Because the current design is to ask the driver to take over in case AP can't figure out how to drive. They have to start anticipating issues and code safe way to handle the car for x seconds. I mean in practice - when AP now says take over "immediately" people still take a couple of seconds to take over. Currently AP will also suddenly ask you to put the hands on the wheel when its confused (usually merging lanes and such) - which is like giving the driver an advance warning.

The levels are not a linear progression. You don't necessarily go from L2 to L3. You can go from L2 to L4. it all depends how the system is structured. So if Tesla chooses to create a system where FSD Beta gives the driver advance notice to take over, then it could be L3. But if Tesla chooses to just improve the system to handle things without a driver and the car pulls over when it can't handle something, then it could go straight to L4. It does not have to pass through L3.

The SAE is not specific on how long the advance notice must be but the L3 system that Mercedes is putting out is about 10 seconds warning. Certainly, the warning that FSD Beta gives now to put hands-on wheel is not L3 because it is way too short. It would need to be longer, like approx. 10 seconds advanced warning to be L3.

 

[aronth5]

AFAIK, there is no "hybrid level" in the CA DMV regulations. There are 3 different kinds of permits. The testing permit allows you to test L4 or L5 autonomous vehicles on public roads with a safety driver. The driverless permit allows you to test L4 or L5 autonomous vehicles on public roads without a safety driver. And then there is a commercial permit which allows you to deploy L4 or L5 autonomous vehicles for commercial purposes.

We're in the infancy of autonomous driving so don't get tied to how the regulations are currently crafted. If we've learned one thing from Elon is think out of the box. Does anyone not think that once FSD becomes mainstream in California and we're 12-18 months out that many drivers won't basically do on the highway and on non complex city/residential roads what I'm suggesting just not legally? Of course they will. As always the regulators will need to consider how to adopt the regulations to fit with what is actually happening. I mean how many people in my state still look at their phones when it's illegal. Add FSD into the mix and see what happens..

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I think regulators are being sensible and knowledgeable in the case of driverless car testing. This was a surprise to me, couple of years ago I would have expected them to drag their feet and be obstacle for companies like Tesla to make progress. Now it seems that Tesla has not even started the regulatory approval process that does exist. Instead they spread FUD like "regulatory approval is the big unknown" to point fingers to someone else (while the bottleneck is their own R&D)

On long term, the vision only path Tesla chose seems to be the right one: it looks to be on the path of being able to produce L4 with the lowest manufacturing cost. Thus Tesla's bet seems to be paying off. Eventually. Not sure how hard it will be for others to adapt to this and drop lidars.

Regardless of the above, Tesla is not a leader in autonomous cars. At least Cruise and Waymo are way ahead in actually getting real cars on real roads driving real people around. This far Tesla is all big vision and a very promising looking L2 perpetually coming to market in "two weeks".