Has Tesla lost it's focus on balanced performance?

[Xenoilphobe]

I dont understand this thread - balanced performance - means different things to different -people. I own a P85+ as my DD and have no interest in the P85D (don't need AWD or autopilot) and frankly don't need any more performance than I already have. I would never "track" the car and have different cars for different "missions". My track car is a Supercharged Miata with roll cage and a suspension that will knock your teeth loose. Same with a beach/mountain vehicle - I have an Supercharged FJ Cruiser for that "mission". Finally we keep the Minivan for the hauler/kids/dog carrier and have another Ford Fusion Hybrid for the kids to get around. Finally the wife has a DD P85. I am actually pulling the staggered 21's off my + because they eat tires every 10-12 K and can't be rotated or driven in poor weather. I just PVD Black Chromed some 19 stock rims to get ready for winter. I don't have the deal with this on the standard P85, but I personally prefer the suspension on the +... - so for me balanced performance isn't getting the 21's with summer tires (which I feel is extremely unnecessary for car the rarely goes over 75 and only corners hard if I drive like a I stole it), which just eats the 21's off twice as fast. Balance performance = efficiency + performance + practicality. 21's rims = stupidity + waste + lack of utility. I think a better way to address this to have the + option back. It's a great car once you dump the staggered 21's...

 

[lolachampcar]

Tesla is going all Mercedes on us. All go, a little whoa and almost no handling

 

[rogbmw]

I have had my "standard" 85 for almost 2 1/2 years now. Sure it would be great to have some of the new bells and whistles, but I have to say that it is plenty quick (I guess I will have to just live with 0-60 in 5 seconds :wink: ), no 4 wheel drive, and no Autopilot. Tesla are just like computers...actually they are computers!!... once you buy one and take it home, the next and newest version is just around the corner - there is always going to be something new coming out.

 

[mgboyes]

Tesla is going all Mercedes on us. All go, a little whoa and almost no handling

1g lateral acceleration is not bad, surely? I realise "handling" covers a whole variety of things, but it seems like a P90DL is going to acquit itself enormously better than an S Class on a bend!

 

[jbcarioca]

Tesla is going all Mercedes on us. All go, a little whoa and almost no handling

Somebody might actually believe this, despite the smiley face. OTOH, I actually like the MB switch gear even though my ICE is a BMW. MY P85D handles better than the BMW as it is much better balanced, not to mention quicker.:love:

 

[dennis]

MY P85D handles better than the BMW as it is much better balanced, not to mention quicker.

I notice from your signature you have a Dec. 2014 build with the stiffer suspension (and maybe the staggered setup with Michelin PS2s). Which was the whole point of starting this thread.

 

[Johan]

2016 BMW M5, Curb weight 4,387 lbs
2015 Tesla Model S P85D, Curb weight 4,830 lbs
I am shocked that an M5 is so heavy! The Model S weight I can understand, it's the battery.

That was surprising. I halfway retract my earlier comment. I guess Tesla should follow a bit more in BMW's footsteps when it comes to suspension, wheels, possibly staggering etc. for the P85D/P90D models.

The problem here seems to be that a standard 70 and a fully optioned P90DL are too similar when it comes to the features important for curve taking, handling etc. that is the base and top model are very similar if you make the comparison between a standard BMW 520 and an M5.

But Tesla is a young company and they have to be careful not to have too complex a setup and too many different suspensions etc. in production.

 

[sorka]

2016 BMW M5, Curb weight 4,387 lbs
2015 Tesla Model S P85D, Curb weight 4,830 lbs
I am shocked that an M5 is so heavy! The Model S weight I can understand, it's the battery.

The M5 is not heavy at all. It's just the the MS is light. You expect there to be more of a difference but the MS's body is made entirely of aluminum. If it weren't, it would be 6000 lb car.

Where did you get the curb weight of 4830 for the P85D. All the sources I see on the internet quote 4936 lbs.

 

[3mp_kwh]

The new BMW M6 coupe stands at 4,515 pounds. Anything over 3,200lbs is heavy. If BMW can deliver a 22kwh, 2,800lb, i3, then they can all improve.
M6 (w/Dan Neil's Tesla reference):
BMW M6: All You Want (Too Bad About the Guilt) - WSJ

I notice from your signature you have a Dec. 2014 build with the stiffer suspension (and maybe the staggered setup with Michelin PS2s). Which was the whole point of starting this thread.

To the extent Tesla isn't using stability control, but is using something else to limit acceleration in turns, I don't think it matters whether you stagger. I've opened up the steering wheel, off apex, under throttle with a square Conti setup, and had no slip, no squeal and barely any power.

IMO, if Tesla wants to sell more 265mm X 21's, they should let the difference be something their customers can explore. They should reprogram, or allow TC-off.

 

[Brissienew]

IMO, if Tesla wants to sell more 265mm X 21's, they should let the difference be something their customers can explore. They should reprogram, or allow TC-off.

So the traction control can't be turn off? No wheel spin, no side way movement allowed?

 

[3mp_kwh]

So the traction control can't be turn off? No wheel spin, no side way movement allowed?

Correct. Under Driver Controls/Settings, "off" was replaced by "Slip Start", which is more about getting unstuck than performance driving.

 

[tstafford]

Still waiting on delivery so I'll ask - How intrusive is the Tesla flavor of traction control? Current BMW for example is too much of a nanny IMO.

 

[mnx]

Still waiting on delivery so I'll ask - How intrusive is the Tesla flavor of traction control? Current BMW for example is too much of a nanny IMO.

On my 2013 P85, I find the Tesla traction control slightly more intrusive than on my 2011 BMW 335d. It feels more intrusive as it responds instantly... However on the RWD drive Teslas it can be turned off as on the BMW. I wish there was a setting to turn stability control off as well.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

On my 2013 P85, I find the Tesla traction control slightly more intrusive than on my 2011 BMW 335d. It feels more intrusive as it responds instantly... However on the RWD drive Teslas it can be turned off as on the BMW. I wish there was a setting to turn stability control off as well.

I feel that the TC is less intrusive than it used to be (P only, not D) but it may be my tires or having driven the car pretty hard for long enough to get a feel for it. I can get a little bit of a drift with it on and can definitely spin the wheels on slippery take-offs where I let off the throttle to try and 'hook up' before the TC even gets off the throttle. With TC on it will let you get out of alignment by a couple of degrees before SC stops the rotation and a bit more with TC turned off
I hear that the D TC is more intrusive

 

[3mp_kwh]

With TC on it will let you get out of alignment by a couple of degrees before SC stops the rotation and a bit more with TC turned off
I hear that the D TC is more intrusive

One point to make about the intrusiveness, in the D, is that intrusion exists without any slip. I can't speak to the wide sweepers of the 'Ring videos, but on tighter turns there is just nothing there once the wheel is turned enough, at a certain speed.

How could they do this? One thought is some small amount of slip at the entry of a turn triggers a mode that does not give you pedal control back until your wheel is straight again, @+-10 degrees. Another is that regardless of slip, Tesla has programmed the P85D's 4 wheels to allow less rotational difference, inboard and outboard, as a function of speed. A wheel doesn't have to slip for a program like this to trigger TC. I'd bet they can, and may have baked this into the car. It isn't an issue of grip. It's more an issue of taking your eyes off Autopilot, before you lose the pilots.