Haters gonna hate

[AnOutsider]

[Moderator's note: Moved out of the Karma thread]

I didn't really have much to add to the existing reviews but I did post a bit about our experience over at Fisker Buzz.

I hadn't planned on posting a review here because with all the haters around here I believe that would be akin to throwing gas on an open flame.

I think there's a difference between being a "hater" and being realistic. I think almost every negative thing said here has been a valid point. Naturally there will be some (perhaps a lot) of people who can overlook the shortcomings and still embrace the vehicle. There's no hate or scorn towards you if you are one of them.

At least link your review.

 

[donauker]

I think there's a difference between being a "hater" and being realistic. I think almost every negative thing said here has been a valid point.

I am very much a realist and there are some realists here but there are also many "haters" that seem to need to constantly declare that the car and Fisker are destined for failure because of whichever shortcoming has become the current topic of discussion. I am very fortunate in that I don't have to choose between the Karma and the Model S so I don't need to constantly work to convince myself that the grapes are sour.

I had my list of concerns with the Karma, many of which were laid to rest by what I consider almost glowing first drive reviews (at least in comparison to the original Roadster reviews). I was left with three primary concerns, space, sound and company viability. Two of the three have been dealt with. The third, well lets just say I had some prior experience with that years ago when I paid a deposit an order of magnitude greater to a car company started by a couple of computer 'geeks' at a time when it was anyone's guess if they would ever deliver anything!

Our term realist vs. hater may be somewhat different. I am referring to those regularly making definitive negative statements that are outright false or can not be substantiated in any way. I don't have the time to back through 95 page of this thread for examples but here are just few from the last few days.

The shooting break design is sooo much more functional than the 4 seater karma with a trunk the size of the roadster.

The trunk may be small and I have no idea how the cu. ft. compare but I do know you can't get a single normal carry on bag in the trunk of the Roadster due to shape of the trunk and I know exactly how much fits in the Roadster because I have packed it to the limit many times. Unfortunately I forgot my tape measure when I went for my Karma drive but it was very apparent that we would not have a problem packing for our typical longer trips. Looked like several times the usable space to us.

The Model s is a direct comparison however, and it blows it out of the water in every aspect.

WTF? I rode in the Model S prototype and it was nice but it really didn't equate in luxury to the Karma I drove. Outside of that I don't think any poster here really knows what the Model S interior will be like, nor many other aspects of the handling, ride etc. That being said I really hope the Model S does blow the Karma out of the water in every aspect because that will be one amazing ride! But no one can really say at this point in time and anyone making the statement is not a realist.

And that just shows again that Fisker seems unable to deal with the issues of actually producing a car. He is outsourcing most work and still he gets stuff wrong again and again. This really shows that Tesla has done much better work using experienced car people and still manages to do things their own way.

I don't really see all that great a difference between Tesla and Fisker in the way they started. Tesla relied on outsourcing much of its work of producing the Roadster as well. And many of the people I see at the Fisker drive event would feel that the Roadster is much more "wrong" for them then the Karma. After years of selling cars Tesla has sold what about 2400 vehicles? I don't think Fisker will have a problem beating that but that is just my opinion. Both companies are heading in the direction of building their own vehicle in their own plant. The big difference is Fisker now has a very beautiful and luxurious vehicle with great handling and an amazing quite ride. Their next step is build a lower cost, less luxurious more practical model. Tesla needs to move from an amazing sports car but probably the antonym of luxury to a real luxury sedan.

 

[AnOutsider]

I am very fortunate in that I don't have to choose between the Karma and the Model S so I don't need to constantly work to convince myself that the grapes are sour.

I'm fairly sure there are many people here who can afford both cars. Dismissing negative opinions as sour grapes is just as bad as being a "hater".

I consider almost glowing first drive reviews (at least in comparison to the original Roadster reviews).

Again, not sounding very objective here, sounding a bit catty and defensive.

*edit* actually, I'd typed responses to all you posted, but on re-read, it just looked like I was feeding a troll. So I withdraw from the "discussion". See ya on Fiskerbuzz.

 

[doug]

In all seriousness, I kinda have to agree with Don as far as I have sensed a tenor of lazy closed mindedness in recent months (not just in the Fisker threads). The sense that what works for me must work for everybody (even for those in different regions of the country, if not the world). The presentation of opinion as fact. Then there's the assertion of incorrect "facts"' that are easily checkable with a 10 second Google search before posting. I'm sure I'm occasionally guilty of these things as well. That said, opinion is opinion and everyone is entitled to his or hers, so try not to take it personally. Let's as a group raise the level of discussion. Keep open minds and always keep it civil. :smile:

Regarding the Karma: Don, I'm interested in your opinion particularly because you're familiar with the Roadster and the Tesla experience and appear immune to fanboi-ism. You're in a position to provide an informed opinion, from which we can all benefit. Ignore the haters.

 

[donauker]

I'm fairly sure there are many people here who can afford both cars. Dismissing negative opinions as sour grapes is just as bad as being a "hater".

I don't dismiss negative opinions, I read them and evaluate them to see if they affect my requirements. It's only if I determine statement as facts are false based on my own first hand observations that I dismiss them.

I consider almost glowing first drive reviews (at least in comparison to the original Roadster reviews).

Again, not sounding very objective here, sounding a bit catty and defensive.

I am not sure how I should have worded this but I had low expectations by the time of the first drive reviews. My concerns were handling, ride, interior quality and over all finish. I was expecting to pass on the vehicle. My take away from all of the reviews was the these areas were quite good and the weak areas were rear seat room, trunk space and engine noise. I evaluated these concern areas for myself on Tuesday and found none of these to be a problem.

*edit* actually, I'd typed responses to all you posted, but on re-read, it just looked like I was feeding a troll. So I withdraw from the "discussion". See ya on Fiskerbuzz.

Wow! I have been a member of this forum for a very long time! Read probably almost every post here. I don't tend to post a lot but have tried to help some people when I could based on my experience. Is there a new definition of troll?

 

[AnOutsider]

Don, your words were weighted in almost every sentence:

I am very fortunate in that I don't have to choose between the Karma and the Model S so I don't need to constantly work to convince myself that the grapes are sour.

To me, that reads: "I can get both cars, so, unlike those that can't, I don't have to convince myself that something is wrong with the car". I won't speak for others, but that's just ridiculous to me. I can afford both cars, and had the opportunity to reserve both (and the Roadster, which I passed on). I do have negative views of the Karma (other than the looks, which can be polarizing but are definitely more striking than the S or the Roadster), and it's not because I can't afford one.

I deleted the rest of my post because highlighting each thing you said and responding really just read like responding to trolling when I re-read it all. If it's not your intention to troll, I apologize, but after seeing so many comments that took jabs (much like a hater), that how you came across to me. If that wasn't your intention, then fine, I'll respond with some things I felt came across as a Fisker fanboy (as doug doesn't seem to think you are)

And many of the people I see at the Fisker drive event would feel that the Roadster is much more "wrong" for them then the Karma.

When reviewing a car, why the need to compare it to a car that isn't even in the same class? It was asked what you liked about the Karma, not how many people like the Karma over another car which isn't even in the same class.

WTF? I rode in the Model S prototype and it was nice but it really didn't equate in luxury to the Karma I drove.

Again, subjective, and you're comparing a prototype that was built on a chassis that wasn't even made for the car. Like you said, no one knows what the interior looks like (until the beta rides), so you're WTF-ing a statement that is truthfully subjective and uninformed (due to lack of information) with a statement that is equally subjective and uninformed.

Both companies are heading in the direction of building their own vehicle in their own plant. The big difference is Fisker now has a very beautiful and luxurious vehicle with great handling and an amazing quite ride.

Karma deliveries have not even started, even if they did, your sentences don't really make sense. They're both heading towards building vehicles in their own plants -- granted, how does the second sentence introduce a "big difference"? The Karma is not being built in the DE plant they were given funds for, the Nina will be. The fact that you find the Karma beautiful, quiet and luxurious are all subjective statements, not fact -- again though, even if they were fact, how do they constitute a "big difference"?

In a way, they're on the same playing field (1 expensive car, with a cheaper, US-built car on the way). Will the Karma sell more than the Roadster? Maybe -- not that I'm sure Tesla cares since they're banking on the S, and not that that's relevant here.

 

[doug]

Ok, lets all chill and talk about the car, not who's a hater/realist/troll. This thread is to give our opinions on the car, not on each other. If there's no objection I'm gonna move those last couple posts.

 

[AnOutsider]

Ok, lets all chill and talk about the car, not who's a hater/realist/troll. This thread is to give our opinions on the car, not on each other. If there's no objection I'm gonna soft delete those last couple posts.

I'm fine with that. Don, let's just agree to disagree, respect each others opinions and recognize them as just that: opinions.

 

[AnOutsider]

haha thanks doug, not it looks like I started a "hater" thread.

 

[donauker]

Don, your words were weighted in almost every sentence:

Not sure if this is good or bad. I was never much of a writer. Hated written assignments in school! I have been a programmer for 35 years now and English has become my very distant second written language. I am often accused of over analyzing things. I don't care to go point by point anymore but I would like to say I am sorry about the WTF. That was my brains unedited off the cuff response to this statement.

The Model s is a direct comparison however, and it blows it out of the water in every aspect.

This statement was posted as present tense fact. No I believe it will, just it does. My logical analysis says 1. The Model S does not yet exist in production ready form and 2.The author admitted to never driving the Karma. Therefore this statement to me is a false or unsubstantiated statement presented as fact so I will be inclined to discount any other "facts" presented by the author.

 

[AnOutsider]

This statement was posted as present tense fact. No I believe it will, just it does. My logical analysis says 1. The Model S does not yet exist in production ready form and 2.The author admitted to never driving the Karma. Therefore this statement to me is a false or unsubstantiated statement presented as fact so I will be inclined to discount any other "facts" presented by the author.

Fair enough, and agreed.

 

[qwk]

This statement was posted as present tense fact. No I believe it will, just it does. My logical analysis says 1. The Model S does not yet exist in production ready form and 2.The author admitted to never driving the Karma. Therefore this statement to me is a false or unsubstantiated statement presented as fact so I will be inclined to discount any other "facts" presented by the author.

Ok, I'm curious about something. Are you buying the fisker for performance? Luxury? Fuel economy? Quiet ride?

The thing is, while the fisker may have an all-electric range of X miles, if you are buying it for performance, that doesn't matter because the ICE comes on to get any kind of acceleration out of the car. There are far better ICE cars with out of this world performance for far less money which will cost you the same in fuel costs.

If you want luxury, there are also many, hybrid cars on the market which are also less money and offer better space/luxury while meeting the fiskers performance.

While the fisker may look good to some, that's about the only benefit I see. Yes, you could get one and use no gas(like some do with the volt), but why putt around at slow speeds with the fisker when you could do the same with the LEAF?

 

[donauker]

Ok, I'm curious about something. Are you buying the fisker for performance? Luxury? Fuel economy? Quiet ride?

Yes to all of the above (in combination).

The thing is, while the fisker may have an all-electric range of X miles, if you are buying it for performance, that doesn't matter because the ICE comes on to get any kind of acceleration out of the car. There are far better ICE cars with out of this world performance for far less money which will cost you the same in fuel costs.

The ICE only comes on if you select Sport Mode or if the battery is depleted. Even though both my girlfriend and I are so spoiled by always driving the Roadster we agreed that the Stealth Mode acceleration was quite satisfactory for our intended use.

If you want luxury, there are also many, hybrid cars on the market which are also less money and offer better space/luxury while meeting the fiskers performance.

They don't have a plug.

While the fisker may look good to some, that's about the only benefit I see. Yes, you could get one and use no gas(like some do with the volt), but why putt around at slow speeds with the fisker when you could do the same with the LEAF?

Not to offend anyone but the Leaf is a non-starter based mostly on that subjective thing called looks. I have a hard enough time keeping my girlfriend out of her Mini Cooper S convertible when I give her the Roadster! (Hate paying for the gas!)

In my mind the question is, Why will I buy an over-priced Luxury Sedan that burns gas sometimes? The rather short answer is, For the same reason I bought an over-priced rather minimalist 2 seat Roadster(Over-priced is certainly the opinion of many people, not necessarily mine). I want another daily use vehicle powered by the solar panels on my roof! I am also getting a bit tired of getting caught in thunderstorms while riding my Vectrix!

Another part of the problem is that about 6 years ago I start down the road to becoming obsessed (Probably one of the kinder terms). I start researching things like the impact of oil imports on our trade deficit, the coming affects due to peak oil, global warming, etc. Of course WKTEC helped. This all lead me to the point of deciding I will only buy new vehicles with a plug.

There is one problem that the Fisker solves for me that Model S will not solve. I live in PA and our charging infrastructure is nil and some of the trips we take will not be possible without gas for quite a few years. At this time I have a rejected RX400h sitting in my garage unused for about 350 days a year. I refuse to use it as a daily use vehicle since it can't even get out of the garage without burning gas. I resent the space it takes up and the license, registration, insurance fees etc. The Fisker will replace that rarely used vehicle and be a daily use all electric vehicle and can still take those occasional trips using no more gas then the Lexus did. We both feel that the Fisker is far superior to the Lexus in most areas except maybe engine noise under hard acceleration and certainly space. For our needs the space is not a problem, plenty to take our turn driving when we go out to eat with friends and plenty when the two of us travel on those occasional trips.

So does it make financial sense, of course not. Personally I don't think any new vehicle makes financial sense.
But as that commercial goes, somethings are priceless.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I don't like the Karma at all, but that is the best defense for getting one I've ever heard. +1.

 

[AnOutsider]

There is one problem that the Fisker solves for me that Model S will not solve. I live in PA and our charging infrastructure is nil and some of the trips we take will not be possible without gas for quite a few years.

I also live in PA, and I feel comfortable a 300mile Model S will get me to and from NYC on the days where I need to commute for business. For me, personally, if I need to go farther, I'm just going to use an ICE.

With a Volt or Karma, you sacrifice electric range for the times (which for me, are rare) that you may need the range extender. I get it, and my past posts on the volt show that, but if your needs are usually met just fine with a 300 mile EV (not saying that's YOUR case, just speaking in general), then why not just use that, then switch to a pure ICE when you can't? Chances are, your mileage will be better anyway.

 

[qwk]

They don't have a plug.

Understood.

My thinking is that while you may have a plug with the Karma, the fuel mileage may be much less than that of a luxury hybrid, so the fuel consumption(unless you almost always use the battery) may even be more.

If you do almost always use the battery, than the S with a 300 mile battery makes so much more sense. Then you use NO gasoline.

 

[donauker]

I also live in PA, and I feel comfortable a 300mile Model S will get me to and from NYC on the days where I need to commute for business. For me, personally, if I need to go farther, I'm just going to use an ICE.

With a Volt or Karma, you sacrifice electric range for the times (which for me, are rare) that you may need the range extender. I get it, and my past posts on the volt show that, but if your needs are usually met just fine with a 300 mile EV (not saying that's YOUR case, just speaking in general), then why not just use that, then switch to a pure ICE when you can't? Chances are, your mileage will be better anyway.

To reiterate and expand a bit on the reasons.

1. I hate having the primary spot in my garage taken up by a vehicle I refuse to use 350 days out of the year. I need to walk around it every day because of vehicle size and layout of my garage.

2. I hate paying for all of the many things associated with vehicle ownership for a vehicle I don't want to use.

3. We no longer feel we need or even like driving the whole RX400h SUV Soccer mom kind of thing. Not saying it is bad just that we have been there and done that and are now so over it.

4. As I stated before I have no intention of buying another non plugin vehicle, so that leaves us stuck with the three previous problems or give up longer trips.

5. We really, really like the Fisker.

6. I want two daily use, all weather electric vehicles because we are a two daily driver household. By the time we get our Model S the Roadster will have more then earned the right to get cleaned up to pristine condition and not be drug out ever day in all the crap mother nature has thrown our way the prior three years of it's life.



On a full range mode charge my 2 1/2 year old Roadster with 32,000+ miles on the odometer will give me 195 miles about 90% 68 mph turnpike and about 10% variable speed slower travel and 50 % A/C usage. I never have used the lower 20 or so miles of range mode reserve because I don't like the amount of battery heating I see well before that point. So this basically leaves me with with 175 miles of the stated 244 pack in my real world use. If I use the same ratio for the Model S 300 mile pack I am in the 210 - 220 mile range. Our one recurring trip is to our close friends cabin in WV about 450 miles away. We can leave work a bit early on a 3 day weekend and still be able to kick back by the camp fire and enjoy a cold one before bed time. I would need at least a full range mode charge of the 300 mile pack half way there or two properly placed 80% fast charges in the hills of MD and WV.

 

[donauker]

Understood.

My thinking is that while you may have a plug with the Karma, the fuel mileage may be much less than that of a luxury hybrid, so the fuel consumption(unless you almost always use the battery) may even be more.

If you do almost always use the battery, than the S with a 300 mile battery makes so much more sense. Then you use NO gasoline.

According to my calculations my average long trip mileage in the Fisker will be equal to or better than my Lexus RX400h.

I won't buy a more efficient hybrid because it has no plug!

My daily use of the Fisker will be all electric. Don't need a 300 mile pack because a 50 mile pack is more than I need.

The 300 mile Model S can't do the trip we do a few times a year.

We will use the Model S (or Roadster if the weather is nice) for any trips that is up to its range limit.

Therefore we will be using no more gas then if we bought 2 Model Ss (sp) and kept the now undesired Lexus.

PS. We really like the Fisker

 

[AnOutsider]

PS. We really like the Fisker

In the end, that's usually all that matters and tends to be the biggest deciding factor. What's your anticipated delivery date?

 

[qwk]

According to my calculations my average long trip mileage in the Fisker will be equal to or better than my Lexus RX400h.

I won't buy a more efficient hybrid because it has no plug!

My daily use of the Fisker will be all electric. Don't need a 300 mile pack because a 50 mile pack is more than I need.

The 300 mile Model S can't do the trip we do a few times a year.

We will use the Model S (or Roadster if the weather is nice) for any trips that is up to its range limit.

Therefore we will be using no more gas then if we bought 2 Model Ss (sp) and kept the now undesired Lexus.

PS. We really like the Fisker

In your case it make sense then. This is especially true because you also have a roadster and plan on an S. Good luck.