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Heating

Discussion in 'Roadster' started by graham, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. graham

    graham Active Member

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    #1 graham, Dec 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2008
    Moderator's Note: Thread split from here.

    I wonder if range will be significantly reduced in the New Jersey snow, running the heater full-time time against the batteries? (or the AC full-time in Arizona for that matter?) How is the drive train range impacted in extreme climates?
     
  2. shark2k

    shark2k Member

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    #2 shark2k, Dec 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2008
    That's another good point Graham. I wasn't even thinking about the fact that the heater would be running so as not to freeze. So now it goes more than just how AWD would affect the car but how having to run the heater would affect the car.

    -Shark2k
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Some tidbits
    from Roadster Efficiency and Range:
    One place says the heater uses 1500 watts, another says 3000 watts.
    (Leaving it on may use 7 to 15 miles of range every hour)
     
  4. shark2k

    shark2k Member

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    Could the number of watts used depend on how hot you have it sent to? Where 1500 watts would be the lowest heat setting and 3000 watts would be the highest?

    -Shark2k
     
  5. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Just curious, what do you guys think of Tesla making a deal with someone doing oilbased heaters, like Webasto? (Or an american equivalent. Webasto seems german and are market leading in Norway for EVs and ICE alike.) It will not add that many extra pounds and as it's just heating it's almost 100% efficient, not to mention you are not using any of the expensive cycles of your $20 000 battery on heating. For a car in Norway the consumption is usually in the 1-2 gallons a season range, so this wont really affect the green credentials either.

    Cobos
     
  6. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Sounds like selling your soul to the devil just when you finally managed to escape its grip but it might actually be a reasonable thing to do. Webasto heaters are supposed to consume somewhere between 0.2 and a litter per hour at full power. One gallon should thus suffice for about 4 hours of strong heating. Interesting idea that might work nice.
     
  7. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    #7 Cobos, Dec 29, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2008
    Yes I do realize it sort of rubs you the wrong way, but considering myself in my ICE car. On a very cold winter day I run the heater for what, 5-10min on full blast to get the inside of the car heated. So a gallon should last a long time. I also know Norway is special in that about 80% of our heating indoors is done using electric heating, but that is pretty wastefull. Electricity is too good a power source to waste it on heating, especially after loosing even more on getting it inside the battery. Of course the oil could be from a "green" source like bioethanol or waste oil.

    Cobos
     
  8. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    Old comment from Martin:

    Wasting Energy like Two Really Nice Refrigerators Tesla Founders Blog
     
  9. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    This is overkill. If there are reasonable sources for it then OK, but just standard drilled oil is good enough already. Consumption would be under 1% of current ICE car consumption. On the other hand, ethanol is also good enough, any liquid that burns is good enough even whiskey if there ain't nothing else :)

    Trouble is, current webasto heaters aren't fit for electric cars. They don't come with their own gas tanks nor fuel gauges.

    I reckon in a few years they will be standard add on equipement in an EV in colder countries.
     
  10. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Cool idea from an efficiency perspective but I think it's a PR nightmare.
     
  11. bobw

    bobw Tesla Reader

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    Especially if it burns whiskey...
     
  12. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Tell this to Elbil Norge then :)
    In their instruction manual under basic specs you find this: "Varmeapparat: Eberspächer Airtronic for lampeolje/parafin, effekt 850-2.200W" which translates to: Heater: Eberspächer Airtronic for lampoil/kerosine, effect 850-2200W.

    Looking a few pages later you see they have factorymounted something that looks a normal gas can for the kerosine. I'm pretty sure the Norwegianised old Thinks also had a factory based solution for mounting a oilbased heater.

    If this was part of Teslas "winter-package" I think it's hard to see how this can be a PR nightmare. They've got proper cold in Canada, Alaska and northern parts of mainland USA as well as Europe. Might include electric heated mirrors and wipers for the headlights.

    Cobos
     
  13. shark2k

    shark2k Member

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    I was on the Tesla website last night and noticed a link to download the Owner's Manual for the Roadster. I downloaded it because I wanted to take a look at it. As I was going through it I came to the section about the heated seats (which I completely forgot about). The reason I mentioned this is because, at least during the winter, you wouldn't really have to worry as much about the heater using that much energy because Tesla has mentioned that using the heated seats is more efficient. Since they are more efficient it would seem like it might almost be a good idea to have all the seats heated in the Model S. Of course, I don't know how much more efficient the heated seats are than using the heater. I also wonder if it would be more efficient to have a cooling system in the seats also instead of using the air conditioner, but that might be another thread.

    -Shark2k
     
  14. Joseph

    Joseph Member

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    "I also wonder if it would be more efficient to have a cooling system in the seats also instead of using the air conditioner, but that might be another thread."

    That's what Honda is doing in their FCX Clarity.
     
  15. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I read somewhere that the heated seats use 65watts each, and the main heater uses at least 1500watts (maybe even 3000), so if the seat heater works for you it is much less power consumed.

    Our Hybrid Highlander has heated seats and we use them once and a while to good effect.
     
  16. shark2k

    shark2k Member

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    Yeah, you mentioned that about the main heater earlier in the post. Nice to see a figure for the heated seats and man is that a big difference. My friend has a Subaru with heated front seats and they do get nice and toasty. The few times I was in his car in the winter he also had the heat on and that was my only experience with heated seats. From that experience though and thinking back on it, I probably would be able to use just the heated seats to keep myself warm so that would be good.

    Thanks for the figure though TEG.

    -Shark2k
     
  17. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Whoa, now this is a low figure.

    "Heated seat efficiency" comes from a fact that almost all heat produced goes to your body where you can feel it while classic heating heats up the air first and then also the car interior and also the outside - a little.

    Add a heated stearing wheel and I'd almost not care for webasto.
     
  18. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Don't get me wrong, heated seats are nice and and would also naturally be included in my imaginary "winter package". Still and this goes more for the Bluestar and Model S, heated seats are not enough. The Roadster is not really a winter car as it is made to be run without the roof on, a car to round out your other car(s). Not so for the newer models, they need to work all year round. And for any sedan with lots of passengers you need to heat the cabin. I've driven my car in around 15F and your hands are freezing. You need heated steering wheel or simply a heated cabin... So for good sales as a allround sedan the Model S needs to handle the lack of heat, and hopefully without draining the battery too much....

    Cobos
     
  19. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    As I just mentioned if I would have lived in Slovenia I'd agree with you. But sales to northern Norway or for that matter Finland or Russia needs an intelligent way of handling this.

    Cobos
     
  20. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    You have a point there. For those countries Webasto does look like a convenient solution.
     

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