Help, A-Pillar Defect Found

[Snowstorm]

@Snowstorm-- kudos to you for being so patient and calm. I would be more than a little upset, but Tesla seems to do the right thing and there should be no question here that a new car is in order.

Oh, I am very upset about it. I just spend a fortune on it and had to give it up after 3 days. I felt that I need to give Tesla a chance to make things right before getting super mad. At this point, I still have confidence that they can do so.

So lets say the A pillar gets damaged on your car in an accident, maybe a tree branch falls on it, or maybe you hit a taller vehicle or something. Would you expect the car to be totalled, or repaired?

If I crashed it myself, then I'll suck it up and have it fixed. However, if I bought something that came defective like that, then I would want to get a new car made rather than being forced to take a re-built wreck.

 

[The Duke]

Let me preface the following with my opinion you should get a new car.
From my own experience racing a 72 Pantera at Laguna Seca . I had a similar failure at the top of the windshield, driver's side. The unibody could not handle the corkscrew (or rather my inept driving through the corkscrew). The repair was simple, remove obstructions TIG weld the old metal and lay a new piece over the break. Press the ends in so they are in a valley, TIG weld in the new piece. Smooth and paint. Stronger than original and nearly invisible. Mine was done at Hall Pantera. The crack never returned. IMHO this is repairable.
But you paid for a new car, not a repaired one.

 

[omarsultan]

So lets say the A pillar gets damaged on your car in an accident, maybe a tree branch falls on it, or maybe you hit a taller vehicle or something. Would you expect the car to be totalled, or repaired?

I have actually had an A pillar damaged in an accident--vehicle rolled over and slid on its roof into a curb. I am happy to be corrected, but the A-pillar is a key structural element of the unibody and I would be surprised to see that level of damage not total a vehicle--this is not a cosmetic dent, the will need to take off the side of the car and maintain the integrity of the other three sides of the box--at that point I have to believe it would be cheaper to simply replace it.

 

[cwerdna]

OP is in Canadia, NHTSA ain't going to be much help.

It appears OP is from Ontario. Is not the NHTSA an entity specific to the United States (i.e. the complaint would have to go to the Canadian equivalent)?

Then, it should be filed w/Transport Canada: Reporting potential safety defects in motor vehicles, tires, and child car seats - Transport Canada.

 

[cwerdna]

Doesn't need safety complaints, or the inevitable internet hyperbole.
...
Complaints are for when the company doesn't respond reasonably.

No they are not. Please read your owner's manual. Search the PDF for Reporting Safety Defects.

Just file a defect report w/the facts and supporting evidence (e.g. pictures), if possible. Don't include hyperbole.

From the copy I have right now for the S

Reporting Safety Defects - US
If you believe that Model S has a defect which
could cause a crash or could cause injury or
death, you should immediately inform the
National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) in addition to
notifying Tesla Motors.
If NHTSA receives similar complaints, it may
open an investigation. If it finds that a safety
defect exists in a group of vehicles, it may
order a recall and remedy campaign. However,
NHTSA cannot become involved in individual
problems between you, your dealer, or Tesla
Motors.
To contact NHTSA, you may call the Vehicle
Safety Hotline toll-free at 1-888-327-4236
(TTY: 1-800-424-9153); go to
www.safercar.gov; or write to: Administrator,
National Highway Traffic Safety, 1200 New
Jersey Avenue SE., Washington, DC 20590.
You can also obtain other information about
motor vehicle safety from www.safercar.gov.

Reporting Safety Defects - Canada
If you believe that your Model S has a defect
which could cause a crash or could cause
injury or death, you should immediately inform
Transport Canada, in addition to notifying
Tesla. To contact Transport Canada, call their
toll-free number: 1-800-333-0510.

If that's what people did, in general, ALL vehicles would have ALL sorts of unreported safety defects and MANY vehicles that have been recalled for safety defects wouldn't be recalled because too many folks who experienced a problem didn't report it. I've been through this MANY times in other threads here.

Take a look at the graph at It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare - Feature starting in late 09 (orange bars). If all those folks who decided to report after the recall did it before, perhaps the recall would've happened sooner?

 

[schonelucht]

So lets say the A pillar gets damaged on your car in an accident, maybe a tree branch falls on it, or maybe you hit a taller vehicle or something. Would you expect the car to be totalled, or repaired?

Have a friend who's pillar was similarly damaged after hitting a pole (slippery conditions + Mercedes). Car was declared a total loss after a few weeks of handwringing from all parties.

 

[hockeythug]

Anything to make their quarterly delivery numbers. You would be a fool to accept delivery around end of quarter.

 

[wdolson]

This is a problem that should have been caught before painting the car, and at absolute worst case should have been caught in the pre-delivery inspection at the service center. Unfortunately being so beholden to the stockholders that they go into crash production mode at the end of every quarter allows these things to slip through.

Tesla would be much better off if they didn't have to worry about quarterly delivery numbers. Investors have become so short sighted any company with much media attention feels these pressures. Elon has said he wishes Tesla wasn't a public company. Managing SpaceX without this level of scrutiny on the quarterly income makes his job a lot easier.

 

[Cintoman]

Looking at the OP's picture of the crack, it looks to me that the inside painted stuff behind the crack is some sort of sound-deadening material or sprayfoam material that most manufacturers use as part of their normal production process. The fact that this inside material is painted definitely shows that it happened at the factory, well before it went into the paint shop. I too agree with most that this is definitely a structural defect which would require a LOT of effort to repair...and maintaining the factory structural integrity would likely not be guaranteed. I wouldn't accept anything other than a replacement vehicle.

I can understand how disheartening this can be. About 7 years ago, my wife and I purchased our very first brand new car, a 2010 VW Passat Wagon. Never in our lives have either of us bought a new car, and although far cheaper than a Model S, it was still a very expensive purchase for us. We were excited. I am phenomenally observant with details/fit-and-finish/build quality about cars. You should see me dissect cars at a Car Show for fit and finish issues. So when we took delivery of our Passat, I scrutenized it to the ultimate degree. It passed and we took delivery of our vehicle. Fast forward the next morning after an overnight rain storm came thru. My car was in my driveway. So I'm all excited to "dig into" all the goodies underneath the tailgate cover (spare tire, jack, emergency kit, etc), and to my shocking surprise, I find about 1 liter of water inside the spare tire well !!! My stomach dropped instantly!! How could water be getting in here??? I called my dealership immediately, as it wasn't even 18 hours since I'd taken delivery of my brand new car. I didn't miss anything upon my inspection, including inspecting the spare tire well (heck, I even had the dealership check the spare tire's air pressure....told you I'm obsessive). So this water entered the vehicle during the night's rainstorm.

They took the car in, took apart the inside of the driver's side D-Pillar and found the issue was with the mating area of the left side stamping and the roof stamping of the car. I originally thought it was a structural issue where the two stampings weren't properly welded, which could cause major structural issues. However, thankfully, it was the seam for where the 2 body panels get welded that wasn't properly sealed. If you look at a vehicle's seams where two structural panels meet, there's some seam "glue" that gets applied to the seam. You can see this if you peel back the insulation in any car's trunk and spare tire well clearly. This seam glue gets applied to the entire body structure prior to getting painted, as the glue gets painted along with the body of the car. Well, in my situation, the machine that applies this glue must have had an air bubble in the line and a small section of the seam didn't get the glue applied. This was exactly where the side panel meets the roof, right where the roof forms a drip rail. So all the water landing on the roof would go into this drip rail, and run towards the back of the car (and into the car). My problem was easily repaired by applying the same seam glue to the tiny area that was missing it. Everything worked out great and for the 5 years I had the car, I never ran into any further issues with water getting into the back. Thankfully, my car wasn't one that was sitting on a lot for months, as I took delivery of the car 3 days after it arrived from Germany, and about 1 month after its' production build.

My case definitely is not the same as the OP's. The OP's is definitely a structural issue and I would insist on replacement. I'm sure Tesla will make everything right for the OP. But I definitely understand how disheartening this must be.

-- Cintoman

 

[timvracer]

Terrible defect for a unibody, in a key structural element. You need a new car.

However, another lesson to any future Tesla buyers, inspect the hell outta your car on delivery. We printed THIS and studied it before we headed to the factory for our pickup, and walked through it while we were there. It's hard, you get all enamored and excited when you finally see your car, but you need to have a mindset of scrutiny. I used the poor lighting in the delivery "tent" to catch all the angles on the paint job, and found a few aesthetic defects in the roof and body that they fixed before we accepted delivery.

I then got the car detailed/ceramic coated, in which the awesome shop I used micro inspected every nook and cranny of the car. 2 problems found, which again were minor and fixable.

 

[JRP3]

From my own experience racing a 72 Pantera at Laguna Seca . I had a similar failure at the top of the windshield, driver's side. The unibody could not handle the corkscrew (or rather my inept driving through the corkscrew). The repair was simple, remove obstructions TIG weld the old metal and lay a new piece over the break. Press the ends in so they are in a valley, TIG weld in the new piece. Smooth and paint. Stronger than original and nearly invisible. Mine was done at Hall Pantera. The crack never returned. IMHO this is repairable.

That would be my expectation.

I am happy to be corrected, but the A-pillar is a key structural element of the unibody and I would be surprised to see that level of damage not total a vehicle--this is not a cosmetic dent, the will need to take off the side of the car and maintain the integrity of the other three sides of the box--at that point I have to believe it would be cheaper to simply replace it.

See the previous quote.

Have a friend who's pillar was similarly damaged after hitting a pole (slippery conditions + Mercedes). Car was declared a total loss after a few weeks of handwringing from all parties.

My guess is there was more damage beyond just the A pillar.

I'm not saying the OP should automatically accept a repair, I'm simply saying I think a repair is feasible.

 

[omarsultan]

I'm not saying the OP should automatically accept a repair, I'm simply saying I think a repair is feasible.

Fair enough.

If there damage is as it appears (i.e. actually damage to the frame and not just something cosmetic), here are my concerns:

1) There is no part called "A-Pillar, Right", there is just the entire side stamping, so Tesla or someone would need to machine a special part for which there are no design specs--for example how far past the crack must the part extent to maintain integrity of the side stamping. As a result there is also no tested/verified procedure for installing this unicorn part, so someone is making things up as they go along here. I might feel better if they shipped the car back to Fremont to do the repair and someone could explain in detail how they are going to do this, but if I were Tesla, I cannot imagine taking on the liability of a repair like that.

As far as replacing the side stamping, Tesla has talked about how they use exotic types of welding and adhesives and other magic to assemble the frame. First, I would want to understand how you undo that then redo it again without compromising the integrity of the unibody since they are not meant to be disassembled. Second, when the side panel is removed, you have essentially removed the side of a box--how do you ensure the other three sides to not shift and create secondary issues. Sure, Tesla could do that, but I can't see those engineering hours being cost effective, and again, why carry the liability of that kind of repair.

If I were restoring some classic car, maybe take these risks, but not for a brand new car.

 

[ecarfan]

Day 2: I called Kevin, Mississauga Ontario, service center manager this afternoon and he said the car is still at Excellence Auto Collision who is evaluating it and preparing a quote. They say they need more time to look into the problem and do some research

Thanks for the update. I'm sorry to read about your problem. Keep us posted. I'm confident Tesla will solve the problem. Even if it is repaired and you aren't confident in the integrity of the car after repair (which I could understand) I think you have a case for requesting a new car, but I don't know about the applicable Canadian laws in your situation.

 

[navguy12]

Fair enough.

If there damage is as it appears (i.e. actually damage to the frame and not just something cosmetic), here are my concerns:

1) There is no part called "A-Pillar, Right", there is just the entire side stamping, so Tesla or someone would need to machine a special part for which there are no design specs--for example how far past the crack must the part extent to maintain integrity of the side stamping. As a result there is also no tested/verified procedure for installing this unicorn part, so someone is making things up as they go along here. I might feel better if they shipped the car back to Fremont to do the repair and someone could explain in detail how they are going to do this, but if I were Tesla, I cannot imagine taking on the liability of a repair like that.

As far as replacing the side stamping, Tesla has talked about how they use exotic types of welding and adhesives and other magic to assemble the frame. First, I would want to understand how you undo that then redo it again without compromising the integrity of the unibody since they are not meant to be disassembled. Second, when the side panel is removed, you have essentially removed the side of a box--how do you ensure the other three sides to not shift and create secondary issues. Sure, Tesla could do that, but I can't see those engineering hours being cost effective, and again, why carry the liability of that kind of repair.

If I were restoring some classic car, maybe take these risks, but not for a brand new car.

Perhaps a solution will involve the injection of the "exotic type of....adhesive" into the cavity until the whole A-pillar is full of said product, which, when cured, may become stronger than the aluminum part around it.

 

[jelloslug]

Perhaps a solution will involve the injection of the "exotic type of....adhesive" into the cavity until the whole A-pillar is full of said product, which, when cured, may become stronger than the aluminum part around it.

That's the crux of the problem though. There are many repair methods that will make the part stronger than it would have ever been from the factory BUT you can't just willy-nilly make random bits of the car stronger. The A pillar was designed to do certain things in the even of an accident and changing the properties of that part of the car can make other parts not react properly.

 

[navguy12]

That's the crux of the problem though. There are many repair methods that will make the part stronger than it would have ever been from the factory BUT you can't just willy-nilly make random bits of the car stronger. The A pillar was designed to do certain things in the even of an accident and changing the properties of that part of the car can make other parts not react properly.

Agreed. That is why I prefaced with, "Perhaps a solution will involve".

When the dust settles on this case, it will be interesting to see what the engineers say is the correct solution.

 

[Sawyer8888]

Just reading some stories thru Apple News and saw this story covered by some website. The OP's posted photos and words and reference to TMC on it. Of course no real journalism like following up with someone at Tesla or doubt they even tried to reach the OP, just pretty much seemed to be copy and paste to me. Can sites basically lift everything from the thread these days and report like this? Sad what journalism has been reduced to.

You mean this?
Tesla Owner Finds Torn A-Pillar on Freshly Delivered Model S
As soon as Tesla makes this right, we'll need to (I'll do it personally) contact them to update the story to have a happier conclusion. At this point, I am still holding out hope that this is a one off defect, and they won't force me (or anyone else) for that matter to accept a defective product.

All privacy is gone once you post to the internet. Especially now given the US administration's recent action on repealing internet privacy safeguards. Anything we discuss in these forums must be assumed will be read by anyone and everyone, including the media.

In a way, it may be for the best that issues like this gain more attention. Tesla is a premium brand and all too often they fail to uphold that standard. Perhaps the more exposure these defects receive, the more consideration Tesla may give in overhauling their QC program.

I love the vehicle, however the long list of fit and finish issues I have recently discovered on my own car is disappointing. One week and back to the shop. Ugh.

The issue involving the A-pillar for the vehicle Snowstorm received is inexcusable. 1) The car goes back, and 2) no lease or insurance payments will be made until a brand new vehicle is delivered. 3) Demand a loaner for the duration of your waiting period.
Optional step 4) Try to let go of the stress - not easy.

 

[Snowstorm]

Want to update us here on what's happening.

Mark, the manager at Excellence Auto (the certified body shop) returned my call this morning. He said he also believes that the crack happened during the manufacturing process and went through the paint shop as cracked due to how the paint was applied to the crack and inside. He was told by Tesla not to repair this yet, and have sent pictures and description to Tesla engineering to get their input on how they want to repair/replace this part. The good news is that the crack is about 66mm (2.6") long and doesn't extend too far below the hood, of course that is still a terrible thing to have in any car new or old. I asked whether this is structural or not, and he gave me a pretty long answer on how most parts of a unibody car is structural, but he doesn't feel this part is "very important" when it applies to the structural strength. He said if this was his car, he would choose repair rather than replace as it would be far less invasive to do (I think he has to dissemble like half the car to replace this piece), but he'll await the recommendation form the Tesla engineering team. If it was up to me, I think they should send this car back to the factory for a retrospective on their production line and build a new one.

Separately, Dustin Leitch the district service manager, called me today to offer reassurance that they will be looking into this problem and get it remedied one way or another. I will give him a call later this afternoon to see if there is an update.

 

[SMAlset]

All privacy is gone once you post to the internet. Especially now given the US administration's recent action on repealing internet privacy safeguards. Anything we discuss in these forums must be assumed will be read by anyone and everyone, including the media. .....

I fully expected OPs situation to get picked up and reported. That wasn't the point of my post. It was how the website didn't do any investigative work into it and lifted OPs photos and comments from this site. I know I can't go and take people's photos or large parts of their statements and reuse as my work. Like I said no real journalism standard here.

 

[Doubletap67]

Want to update us here on what's happening.

Mark, the manager at Excellence Auto (the certified body shop) returned my call this morning. He said he also believes that the crack happened during the manufacturing process and went through the paint shop as cracked due to how the paint was applied to the crack and inside. He was told by Tesla not to repair this yet, and have sent pictures and description to Tesla engineering to get their input on how they want to repair/replace this part. The good news is that the crack is about 66mm (2.6") long and doesn't extend too far below the hood, of course that is still a terrible thing to have in any car new or old. I asked whether this is structural or not, and he gave me a pretty long answer on how most parts of a unibody car is structural, but he doesn't feel this part is "very important" when it applies to the structural strength. He said if this was his car, he would choose repair rather than replace as it would be far less invasive to do (I think he has to dissemble like half the car to replace this piece), but he'll await the recommendation form the Tesla engineering team. If it was up to me, I think they should send this car back to the factory for a retrospective on their production line and build a new one.

Separately, Dustin Leitch the district service manager, called me today to offer reassurance that they will be looking into this problem and get it remedied one way or another. I will give him a call later this afternoon to see if there is an update.

I think it is up to you. If it were me I'd be insisting on replacement of the car, using the words structural integrity, crash worthiness, safety, and liability in every conversation. Force them to refuse to replace the car rather than hope that they'll replace it.