Help convince me that the Model 3 is an appropriate car for me...

[Daniel in SD]

Thanks for the input. For me, the power and handling of the Model 3 Performance is the main emotional appeal of the car. The basic LR model isn't even in the running. The emotional appeal of the S4 is the build quality and sound (while still being reasonably fast). The advantages and disadvantages of each are so different that it's a really tough decision.

The handling of the Performance is nearly identical to the AWD (1cm drop with the same shocks isn't significant). AWD vs. RWD is personal preference. I find that RWD cars have a more balanced feel. You get a lot of vagueness in the steering when driving the AWD hard (just like an Audi). The AWD and Performance definitely have a lot more power though!

 

[SMAlset]

Long-time Audi and recent Tesla owner here with a quick answer:

Stay the @%#! away from Tesla.

Would be interested to hear more detail. FWIW, I've had some ridiculous build quality issues with Audi as well.

As you can imagine there are some owners (and don't know if the other poster even owns one) who have had issues with their deliveries and their cars. However I think you will find that with over 100K cars sold in just this last quarter you would be hearing a lot more complaints if the car was so bad. In fact I think you will see that the vast majority of the Model 3 owner simply love their car and driving it. Myself included.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Re: the 200 mile range, is that assuming aggressive driving? Or is the commuting range of the Performance ~200 miles? Against a 310 mile EPA range that's... really bad.

I'm doing about 340Wh/mi with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires that are slightly wider than stock (265 width). That works out to about 220 mile range if the battery is completely full which isn't a great idea to do all the time. It's much better if you're stuck in traffic though. If you cruise at 80mph on the freeway it really sucks down the juice. Lots of hills here in San Diego which doesn't help either.

 

[AEdennis]

I've narrowed my car search to a Model 3 Performance or an Audi S4. I'll primarily be using the as a commuter in a mild climate, but the car absolutely must be able to handle occasional 200-300 mile business trips, occasional family road trips, and exposure to Chicago-level winters.

The S4 is a known quantity. It will be a terrific four season car and with ICE obviously does not have issues with longer trips. It can't touch the Model 3 for straight-line speed and is a step behind in handling. Total cost of ownership is a near-draw given the local cost of electricity.

There are a lot of things I love about the Model 3, but a few things that really worry me:

• Charging availability. Most of my longer trips would be along the 5 or 15 corridors in SoCal. I've seen several reports of long lines at California superchargers. I can't plan my business travel around the possibility of being stuck in a line waiting to charge.
• Cold weather battery performance. There's a good chance the car will see extensive duty in Midwest winters--i.e., -10 to 30 degrees for several months a year. I am reading reports of 30-50% range hits in cold weather. I'm not willing to do things like cycle cabin heating just to get reasonable range out of a $70k car.
• Cold weather design issues. Again, there seem to be a number of complaints about sticking handles, doors, and chargeports in cold weather. It seems like Tesla may have addressed the chargeport but I don't see how they could do anything about the windows or handles with an OTA update. Having door handles regularly stick closed in the wintertime would be a deal breaker for me.

Now I know the internet is an echo chamber and tends to blow issues way out of proportion. I'd love to hear from people who have similar use cases on whether the Model 3 works as well as a traditional car, or whether I'd be better off waiting for the next generation of EVs. Thanks!

Get the Audi... makes those supercharger lines shorter for us...

Seriously, nothing compares to ANY Tesla Model when comparing it to an ICE car, so, if you want a bunch of Tesla owners to convince you, just go and drive one and compare.

There is an OC Club meetup next Saturday... show up and a bunch of folks can show you different options with their cars.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Re: the 200 mile range, is that assuming aggressive driving? Or is the commuting range of the Performance ~200 miles? Against a 310 mile EPA range that's... really bad.

Rent one on Turo and do one of your business trips. I'm assuming you'll be able to charge at home? Personally I would never recommend an EV to anyone who can't charge at work or at home. Remember that you'll always start the day at a full (well 90%) charge.

 

[eloder]

Performance probably isn't the best for your use case, as performance can take a pretty big hit to efficiency. Efficiency is king with effective charging speed (range over time spent charging), and my RWD has had range hits under 25% with ~40 F temps.

I'm not sure exactly what your commuting v. business trip use case is, but charging an EV for normal daily commutes is extremely easy and convenient with home charging. You basically trade fast refueling on trips for zero time spent refueling outside of trips, and it's one of my favorite parts about owning an EV.

Teslas are incredibly fun, but you will trade a little bit of unknown in exchange for the experience. I do recommend test driving it. I've found the disadvantages of a Tesla to be worth the huge advantages.

I imagine that the supercharger issues are near their worst right now--most of the country doesn't have the supercharger issue even now, and thanks to the Model 3 they will finally start bringing in revenues and profits from supercharging (not to mention that the Model 3 itself is infusing the company with gobs of cash).

Also, Autopilot for road trips is AMAZING. I think this is something you must experience as someone who takes frequent longer trips. I cannot convey in words accurately how relaxing and stress-relieving Autopilot is for long road trips.

 

[Jaywlker]

If you are concerned about range, don’t get the performance.

I suspect congested superchargers might exist in a few hot spots around the holidays. But I’m not sure if it’s the norm. You might need extra planning and have a backup plan. Especially in cold climates.

Cold weather design flaws are real. And seem to be, being addressed. New charge port design coming.

It’s really a matter of how much you want it.

I think above 30% hit for cold weather is rare for long trips. Short cold trips can get high.

I agree. If you really want more range, find a long-range rear wheel drive , non-Performance M3. We have a dual-motor M3, and the performance version, and friends with a rear-wheel drive long-range version. Our Performance is quick and fun, and our dual-motor is nearly as quick and fun, but they both are much quicker than most ICE vehicles. Our Performance can be expected to get 80% of rated range with jackrabbit starts, and our dual-motor gers about 100% of rated range without driving it like a grandmother, but the rear wheel drive long range gets the most of the 310 miles, plus some.

 

[Jaywlker]

Performance probably isn't the best for your use case, as performance can take a pretty big hit to efficiency. Efficiency is king with effective charging speed (range over time spent charging), and my RWD has had range hits under 25% with ~40 F temps.

I'm not sure exactly what your commuting v. business trip use case is, but charging an EV for normal daily commutes is extremely easy and convenient with home charging. You basically trade fast refueling on trips for zero time spent refueling outside of trips, and it's one of my favorite parts about owning an EV.

Teslas are incredibly fun, but you will trade a little bit of unknown in exchange for the experience. I do recommend test driving it. I've found the disadvantages of a Tesla to be worth the huge advantages.

I imagine that the supercharger issues are near their worst right now--most of the country doesn't have the supercharger issue even now, and thanks to the Model 3 they will finally start bringing in revenues and profits from supercharging (not to mention that the Model 3 itself is infusing the company with gobs of cash).

Also, Autopilot for road trips is AMAZING. I think this is something you must experience as someone who takes frequent longer trips. I cannot convey in words accurately how relaxing and stress-relieving Autopilot is for long road trips.

I agree! Autopilot is THE BOMB.

 

[mswlogo]

Re: the 200 mile range, is that assuming aggressive driving? Or is the commuting range of the Performance ~200 miles? Against a 310 mile EPA range that's... really bad.

The AWD is technically 295 range (0-100% battery)

Take AT LEAST another 15 miles off for 20” wheels. Now your down to 280. Now factor in the typical 20-80% folks run their battery range. That’s 60% of 280 is 168 miles of range. Now if want to stretch it to 10-90% of battery it would be 224 miles range. That’s probably keeping under 70 mph and no launching.

That doesn’t include another 20% hit for heat in cold weather.

 

[Gavyne]

Thanks for the input. For me, the power and handling of the Model 3 Performance is the main emotional appeal of the car. The basic LR model isn't even in the running. The emotional appeal of the S4 is the build quality and sound (while still being reasonably fast). The advantages and disadvantages of each are so different that it's a really tough decision.

I think most are suggesting if you need range to go with the Long Range AWD, rather than Performance AWD. 0-60 in 4.5s is pretty damn fast and will give you good feels whenever you floor it. Performance Model 3 is obviously faster and will give you a bit more thrill. But if you are worried about range, the non-P version of AWD is going to be better for you.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I think most are suggesting if you need range to go with the Long Range AWD, rather than Performance AWD. 0-60 in 4.5s is pretty damn fast and will give you good feels whenever you floor it. Performance Model 3 is obviously faster and will give you a bit more thrill. But if you are worried about range, the non-P version of AWD is going to be better for you.

No, the performance and AWD have exactly the same range if you put the same wheels and tires on them.
However if your benchmark is an Audi S4 then you've got to put summer tires on it.
The Model 3 LR is the way to go if range is a big concern.

 

[Amendale]

I've narrowed my car search to a Model 3 Performance or an Audi S4. I'll primarily be using the as a commuter in a mild climate, but the car absolutely must be able to handle occasional 200-300 mile business trips, occasional family road trips, and exposure to Chicago-level winters.

The S4 is a known quantity. It will be a terrific four season car and with ICE obviously does not have issues with longer trips. It can't touch the Model 3 for straight-line speed and is a step behind in handling. Total cost of ownership is a near-draw given the local cost of electricity.

There are a lot of things I love about the Model 3, but a few things that really worry me:

• Charging availability. Most of my longer trips would be along the 5 or 15 corridors in SoCal. I've seen several reports of long lines at California superchargers. I can't plan my business travel around the possibility of being stuck in a line waiting to charge.
• Cold weather battery performance. There's a good chance the car will see extensive duty in Midwest winters--i.e., -10 to 30 degrees for several months a year. I am reading reports of 30-50% range hits in cold weather. I'm not willing to do things like cycle cabin heating just to get reasonable range out of a $70k car.
• Cold weather design issues. Again, there seem to be a number of complaints about sticking handles, doors, and chargeports in cold weather. It seems like Tesla may have addressed the chargeport but I don't see how they could do anything about the windows or handles with an OTA update. Having door handles regularly stick closed in the wintertime would be a deal breaker for me.

Now I know the internet is an echo chamber and tends to blow issues way out of proportion. I'd love to hear from people who have similar use cases on whether the Model 3 works as well as a traditional car, or whether I'd be better off waiting for the next generation of EVs. Thanks!

Regarding cold weather battery performance, the 30% loss is real. On really cold days (below -10C/15F) its probably more like 40%. Regen braking turns off if the battery is cold. It depends on the trip, if you are doing a bunch of short trips in the cold, you will lose a lot of range. If you are doing one long trip, you will burn some battery heating up, but after the cabin and battery have warmed up you will return close to rated consumption.

Regarding cold weather design issues, it can be real, but there are some things that can be done to reduce problems. Refer to this thread

 

[Tam]

...along the 5...

I have never heard of any line at Kettleman City on I-5 that has 40 stalls.

Neither I have heard of any line at Baker on I-15 that has 40 stalls.

You just need to bypass busy ones and to for empty ones.

...Cold weather battery performance.

You'll quickly learn how to adjust to it.

...sticking handles, doors, and chargeports in cold weather...

Just like any cars, just pre-heat your Tesla before you take off.

My input is: If you are hesitant, then listen to your gut. Buying a Tesla is just like entering into a marriage. If you are cold feet, don't think twice and get out!

 

[aronth5]

To me the key decision point is the OP's statement that "he car absolutely must be able to handle occasional 200-300 mile business trips, occasional family road trips, and exposure to Chicago-level winters".
If there are superchargers along the routes you take on your cold weather business trips then I would say a Tesla makes sense. If not then buy the Audi.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Re: the 200 mile range, is that assuming aggressive driving? Or is the commuting range of the Performance ~200 miles? Against a 310 mile EPA range that's... really bad.

From all of your comments lately....It does not appear that you would complain about your Audi like you would complain about your Tesla.

I would rather you miss out on your Tesla than to dislike getting a Tesla by missing out on your Audi.

NO worries - you will one day be electric.

Elon is trying to accelerate the world to renewable energy fueled cars - who knows - maybe your next Audi will be electric as well.

 

[mswlogo]

Regarding cold weather battery performance, the 30% loss is real. On really cold days (below -10C/15F) its probably more like 40%. Regen braking turns off if the battery is cold. It depends on the trip, if you are doing a bunch of short trips in the cold, you will lose a lot of range. If you are doing one long trip, you will burn some battery heating up, but after the cabin and battery have warmed up you will return close to rated consumption.

Regarding cold weather design issues, it can be real, but there are some things that can be done to reduce problems. Refer to this thread

I agree mostly, but you will NOT return to rated range once the cabin is warmed up. It will take a steady 20% battery AFTER it's all warmed up if it's say in the 20-30F range. That's using the normal heater. During that early cabin warm up period is when it can go well above 20%. There are lots of variables around heat. Depending on humidity sometimes you have no choice but to run recirculate off due to fogging and when you do the cost of heat really goes up. If you can get away with recirculate on then that can save a bunch, but it may fog up. Perhaps in other parts of the country with different dew points parameters are different. Maybe when it gets real cold the efficiency of the A/C is not enough and you need to bring in fresh freezing cold air that needs to get heated.

Try turning heat OFF when doing 70 MPH on 20F day after everything is all stable. The cabin will cool off really quick. You'll see your wh/mi drop instantly and the cabin will cool instantly too. In needs constant heat. Be careful doing this. It might fog up quick.

Some folks have used heated seats and set the heater very low.

 

[Gavyne]

No, the performance and AWD have exactly the same range if you put the same wheels and tires on them.
However if your benchmark is an Audi S4 then you've got to put summer tires on it.
The Model 3 LR is the way to go if range is a big concern.

I was more referring to how you can order Long Range AWD with 18 or 19" wheels, where as Performance AWD only comes with 20" stock. So ordering the stock cars, comparing LR to Performance of AWD trims, he'll get longer range by going with Long Range version. Of course you're right he could swap the 20" out with his own.

But really though if range is a concern, go with Long Range AWD with 18" wheels, it'll give you the best range.

 

[AEdennis]

I have never heard of any line at Kettleman City on I-5 that has 40 stalls.

Neither I have heard of any line at Baker on I-15 that has 40 stalls.

You just need to bypass busy ones and to for empty ones.




You'll quickly learn how to adjust to it.



Just like any cars, just pre-heat your Tesla before you take off.

My input is: If you are hesitant, then listen to your gut. Buying a Tesla is just like entering into a marriage. If you are cold feet, don't think twice and get out!

Around the Holidays this year, there were a couple of times that Kettleman had a line...

Here's a link on Twitter on the 22nd of December, 2018 - The Girl with the Mozart Tattoo on Twitter

 

[Uncle Paul]

OP has requested that the Model 3 perform absoutely in the worst case scenario. Must be able to go up to 300 miles, not need to stop ever at a Supercharger that is full, doing this in sub freezing temperatures. Being able to run at higher speeds and not stop to charge when it is prudent to do so.

Perhaps this is an unrealistic expectation and might result in an unsatisfactory ownership experience.

The best experience in any EV is to understand where it is great and not so great.

For the time being, an ICE vehicle with a large fuel tank, will still be best for non stop high speed runs.

I used to be that guy, and cherished my Grand Cherokee with 25 gallon fuel tank. It could go 500 miles without needing fuel. I prided myself in driving "straight through" but often arrived exhausted and miserable all the next day.

Since getting my X a couple years ago, I am a changed person. Now on long road trips I leave a little early, drive for 3 hours or so and stop for a late breakfast while I grab a charge. Get back on the road for another 3 hours and stop for a bathroom break to get rid of my breakfast coffee and walk around a bit to check out the area around the Supercharger. Then another 3 hours and plug in for the night. Get up in the morning and repeat.

My life is much better. My attitude is to enjoy the trip instead of just suffering through a long trudge.

It is something that is hard to imagine, or describe, but the travel experience is far better. I never get frustrated hunting around for the cheapest gas station, eating in horrible gas station mini-markets, standing outside pumping gas or dealing with payment of all that gas I was burning.

To re examine the original posts it is kind of like asking if someone should buy an Audi over the Camry they are currently driving. Asking if someone would guarantee that the Audi would be as reliable as the Toyota, if the Audi could run on regular gas as the Camry uses and if it would be as comfortable riding as the Camry. The question itself is a bit self defeating. I remember Elon answering a question as to how a Tesla would loose efficiency in 20 degrees below zero. He commented that the ICE vehicle probably would not even start in those conditions

The Model 3 is fast, comfortable, great looking, offers a fantastic driving experience, is proving reliable, safe and makes a step of getting weaned off burning gasoline to get around. Focusing only on range, in difficult circumances rarely encountered is missing the point a bit.

Did I mention the Autopilot is fantastic and getting better...

 

[Matt L]

Pow!

Had just got back from my first drive in the Tesla after bringing it home from the SC. New effin’ rattle, this time deep inside the dashboard, in front of the steering column.

Insert Elon groupie eye roll etc ...

You should sell it