HELP! Getting 0-1kw from 200 amp service on 110v

[Sophias_dad]

My first guess is that they are using backstabbed outlets with 14 gauge wire. Sure, its legal and saves the installer a minute or two per outlet, but its problems down the line(literally), especially if there are daisy-chained outlets.

I'd look at plugshare to find a real charging solution, at this point.

Alternatively, and depending on access, I might try to improve the connections to at least one outlet in the house that is both closest to the electrical panel and within range of the charging cord.

 

[celtics23]

welp, this exploded. the homeowner came over with his electrician, the entire house's power is whacked. they admitted "the last renters also said the lights dimmed when they used the microwave..."

the entire 200 amp panel is "unbalanced" according to the electrician, and they say they want the power company to come out, which will require them shutting off power, to investigate whether it's at the road, underground ,etc.

this is NUTS, long story short, the car will charge at 6-7amps if i want, and now we have to figure out whether we want 6-8 hours of electrical work tomorrow at this house we're renting for the week....nightmare!

but the good news...the problem isn't my car or my charger...i guess that's something?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

welp, this exploded. the homeowner came over with his electrician, the entire house's power is whacked. they admitted "the last renters also said the lights dimmed when they used the microwave..."

the entire 200 amp panel is "unbalanced" according to the electrician, and they say they want the power company to come out, which will require them shutting off power, to investigate whether it's at the road, underground ,etc.

this is NUTS, long story short, the car will charge at 6-7amps if i want, and now we have to figure out whether we want 6-8 hours of electrical work tomorrow at this house we're renting for the week....nightmare!

but the good news...the problem isn't my car or my charger...i guess that's something?

Yeah, that makes sense, and is not too surprising. It happens. I'd just let them do the electrical work and ask them to take a couple days (or more if it takes longer) off the price! Part of the cost of home ownership...

May not be a good trade if you're without power for days though.

 

[jjrandorin]

welp, this exploded. the homeowner came over with his electrician, the entire house's power is whacked. they admitted "the last renters also said the lights dimmed when they used the microwave..."

the entire 200 amp panel is "unbalanced" according to the electrician, and they say they want the power company to come out, which will require them shutting off power, to investigate whether it's at the road, underground ,etc.

this is NUTS, long story short, the car will charge at 6-7amps if i want, and now we have to figure out whether we want 6-8 hours of electrical work tomorrow at this house we're renting for the week....nightmare!

but the good news...the problem isn't my car or my charger...i guess that's something?

If you can arrange to be away from the rental house for the day they are working on it (doing "vacation things" maybe?) it might not be so bad. It sounds like the owner took action fairly quickly. Perhaps you can negotiate a day or two off the price for letting them turn off the power while you are out and about (or arrange to be out and about)?

 

[eprosenx]

So lots of discussion in this thread, but I feel like I need more data. When you first plug in and the instant it shows the voltage, what does it show? Then can you show/explain how the voltage changes as charge current ramps up?

Indeed I would first assume there is an issue on the circuit you plugged into (overloaded circuit or midwifed), but if you really have tried lots of different plugs in the house then odds are you have tried multiple circuits.

Frankly if just a handful of amps of load at 120v is dragging the voltage down sufficiently that the car is tripping off that is terrifying for any modern electrical service (especially a 200a one).

I actually am wondering if the house has a loose or broken neutral connection. This would not have any problems for 240v loads (oven/range, water heater, AC, etc…) but would be an issue for 120v loads (do lights flicker or dim/brighten unexpectedly?)

Pictures of the electrical panel and meter and any service mast / wire back to the utility transformer might be useful to help diagnose. This sounds like a problem that can be resolved (and if it is a broken neutral getting it fixed is critical for safety).

P.S. I never said I added my temp charging solution “hot”…. But yes, I would probably just wire myself my own 240v receptacle directly into the oaneland call it a day…

 

[jjrandorin]

So lots of discussion in this thread, but I feel like I need more data. When you first plug in and the instant it shows the voltage, what does it show? Then can you show/explain how the voltage changes as charge current ramps up?

Indeed I would first assume there is an issue on the circuit you plugged into (overloaded circuit or midwifed), but if you really have tried lots of different plugs in the house then odds are you have tried multiple circuits.

Frankly if just a handful of amps of load at 120v is dragging the voltage down sufficiently that the car is tripping off that is terrifying for any modern electrical service (especially a 200a one).

I actually am wondering if the house has a loose or broken neutral connection. This would not have any problems for 240v loads (oven/range, water heater, AC, etc…) but would be an issue for 120v loads (do lights flicker or dim/brighten unexpectedly?)

Pictures of the electrical panel and meter and any service mast / wire back to the utility transformer might be useful to help diagnose. This sounds like a problem that can be resolved (and if it is a broken neutral getting it fixed is critical for safety).

P.S. I never said I added my temp charging solution “hot”…. But yes, I would probably just wire myself my own 240v receptacle directly into the oaneland call it a day…

Hi @eprosenx , good to see you still around!

 

[eprosenx]

welp, this exploded. the homeowner came over with his electrician, the entire house's power is whacked. they admitted "the last renters also said the lights dimmed when they used the microwave..."

the entire 200 amp panel is "unbalanced" according to the electrician, and they say they want the power company to come out, which will require them shutting off power, to investigate whether it's at the road, underground ,etc.

this is NUTS, long story short, the car will charge at 6-7amps if i want, and now we have to figure out whether we want 6-8 hours of electrical work tomorrow at this house we're renting for the week....nightmare!

but the good news...the problem isn't my car or my charger...i guess that's something?

Oops, I responded before seeing this post.

Yup. This is a classic “loose neutral” situation.

FWIW, if you had a way to connect to a 240v circuit you would not have an issue I suspect. 240v connections don’t use the neutral which is probably what is broken. Could of had the electrician wire you up something temporary.

I would never condone dangerous wiring, but in an emergency you could cut the end off an extension cord and wire it direct to the panel at 240v (through an appropriately sized breaker of course). Lol

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

P.S. I never said I added my temp charging solution “hot”….

Seemed more dramatic that way though.

but in an emergency you could cut the end off an extension cord and wire it direct to the panel at 240v (through an appropriately sized breaker of course).

Now that is more like it. A clever solution. Could probably do that hot too. Just connect it to the breaker before popping it in. Nice fast charging too!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

and if it is a broken neutral getting it fixed is critical for safety

I understand the neutral can basically end up hot (because it just ends up being connected through devices to the line voltage). And aside from appliances not working, wouldn’t the safety issue be mostly a problem for older devices that have a case that may be connected to neutral (which seems dangerous anyway)? What other dangers are there, out of curiosity?

And related, though sort of off topic here though it relates to the neutral problem - I’ve always worried about shared neutral breakers...kind of wonder if there are situations where you can throw one breaker to work on a circuit, not knowing it shares a neutral...and then disconnect the neutral...and then a device (say a lightbulb!) which is on the other breaker (not opened) could make that neutral hot, couldn’t it? Is this possible?

 

[eprosenx]

Seemed more dramatic that way though.

Now that is more like it. A clever solution. Could probably do that hot too. Just connect it to the breaker before popping it in. Nice fast charging too!

I also never said I didn’t do it hot.

To be honest, I have done more hot work than I probably should and without always the proper PPE. The more I learn the more I realize how certain things have been dumb. (arc flash protection gear exists to keep you from getting injured, better just to do it “cold” if you cqn

Always commit yourself to learning more especially when it comes to safety.

I understand the neutral can basically end up hot (because it just ends up being connected through devices to the line voltage). And aside from appliances not working, wouldn’t the safety issue be mostly a problem for older devices that have a case that may be connected to neutral (which seems dangerous anyway)? What other dangers are there, out of curiosity?

And related, though sort of off topic here though it relates to the neutral problem - I’ve always worried about shared neutral breakers...kind of wonder if there are situations where you can throw one breaker to work on a circuit, not knowing it shares a neutral...and then disconnect the neutral...and then a device (say a lightbulb!) which is on the other breaker (not opened) could make that neutral hot, couldn’t it? Is this possible?

A fantastic question!

As you point out, there is the personal
Safety shock hazard. If the neutral line is broken, the case of metal electronics could become energized and have a “potential” between them and other grounded items (because back at the utility transformer the neutral is also tied to ground). This is another great reason that all grounding connections in a house should be bonded together. That way there is no potential between a water pipe and your stove case.

The concerns I was speaking about are twofold: If the neutral from the utility transformer to your house is disconnected then other less optimal paths will end up carrying current. If your house is grounded well and the utility transformer is grounded well then hopefully much of the current flows through the ground. But there can be other bad paths like cable TV lines, Phone Lines, gas lines, water pipes, etc…. The other risk is that half the 120v appliances will see voltages exceeding 120v and half will see less than 120v. This can easily damage equipment/appliances or in the worst case scenario cause them to overheat which is a fire risk.

This is why if you call the utility company and tell them you think you have a loose neutral they will typically immediately dispatch a repair crew on the spot.

Oh, and the shock hazard is more than just for old appliances with bonded neutral and ground. Say you have a modern oven that has separate neutral and ground but that the neutral line to the utility is totally broken. Further say the plumbing in the house is metal and not bonded to the main panel ground properly. Current can flow through any appliance from a hot conductor to the neutral and then over to all grounded decides via the bond from neutral to ground in the panel. There then could be a difference in potential between the oven case and the plumbing.

Proper grounding and bonding is critical and loose neutrals are dangerous.

 

[eprosenx]

And related, though sort of off topic here though it relates to the neutral problem - I’ve always worried about shared neutral breakers...kind of wonder if there are situations where you can throw one breaker to work on a circuit, not knowing it shares a neutral...and then disconnect the neutral...and then a device (say a lightbulb!) which is on the other breaker (not opened) could make that neutral hot, couldn’t it? Is this possible?

Lol, it is as if you are channeling the NEC code writers. ;-)

As of more recent codes you now are mandated to have “multi wire branch circuits” (shared neutral circuits) breakers tied together with handle ties so that when turning off one circuit you are forced to turn off the other at the same time.

Typically folks just use double pole breakers for this instead as they already come with the handle tie and are probably cheaper than buying it separately.

 

[Sophias_dad]

The good news for OP is that if it is a loose neutral it should be more like a 15 minute fix rather than an eight hour fix.

Side note..... I don't know why I didn't think of the loose neutral issue. My immediate next door neighbor had his neutral line broken by a falling tree limb because it happened to be very slightly shorter than the other two conductors going to his house. Lost a decent amount of stuff in his house as the 120V loads saw anything from 0 to 240 volts as other loads would drag the largely-unconnected neutral up or down. He ran his heating system via a long extension cord or two from my house for several days before the electric company could come fix it.

 

[jjrandorin]

Lol, it is as if you are channeling the NEC code writers. ;-)

As of more recent codes you now are mandated to have “multi wire branch circuits” (shared neutral circuits) breakers tied together with handle ties so that when turning off one circuit you are forced to turn off the other at the same time.

Typically folks just use double pole breakers for this instead as they already come with the handle tie and are probably cheaper than buying it separately.

When I had my tesla powerwalls installed in Jan of 2020, they moved all but one of my breakers into the "backup loads panel". The only thing not on the backup loads panel is my tesla wall connector. In my main panel, I had gone through and labeled every breaker, next to the breaker, with p-touch labels so I knew exactly what was on each circuit.

When the two tesla electricians came, they saw it and said "oh cool, this is nice. We will give you a chart so you dont have to figure out all this again, as to which "new breaker in backup panel" comes from "which old breaker in main panel".

Anyway, when they got done, I noticed that a lot of my loads were now handle tied together, and was confused (I dont have as much knowledge around this stuff as you guys do). I asked them "Hey, how come these two things are tied together when they were not tied together in my old panel? Now, if I turn off X breaker it also turns off Y breaker and it wasnt like that before".

They said "oh, those are shared neutrals and now, by code, they have to be handle tied together. I said "oh, ok" but didnt quite understand it, but realized they had done it "on purpose, because it needed to be done". I went and did a bit of online reading about shared neutrals to see if I could understand the issue, and came to the the understanding (although very basic understanding on my end) of what you and @AlanSubie4Life are talking about, related to shared neutrals.

===================
Edit: changed.... " loads NOT handle tied together" to ......"loads NOW handle tied together", which was what it was supposed to say

 

[GtiMart]

Wow, so we learn something new every day. I did not even know that you could share neutrals. The little electricity work I've done around my house, every circuit had its own neutral. Is it old installations? Maybe it's not allowed in code anymore?

I also had no idea what a bad neutral could cause. Thanks to all who took the time to explain.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I did not even know that you could share neutrals

Saves copper! Everything for the mighty buck. As I understand it (I am not an electrician, just an electrical engineer), it must be done with two circuits with opposite phase (so usually next to each other on a panel so they are tapping opposite bus bars), so that the neutral return can never carry more than the maximum allowed current (and if both circuits are pulling the same current the return current through neutral is zero since the neutral becomes a "virtual ground" in EE parlance). No bueno to have 30A through #14 - so opposite phase only!

If you can save a wire, you save a wire.

It's actually non-obvious, usually, since the neutral return wires tap to the grounding bar in the panel and aren't obviously paired with the line voltage wires. I have a single (I think it is just one pair of circuits that do it) shared neutral pair of breakers in my panel. I had no idea...you'd have to carefully trace the returns and make sure all the wires are paired up or whatever, and even then certainly no guarantee. Maybe there is some way to tell I'm not thinking of.

Anyway, I discovered it because I threw the breaker to work on a circuit, and then in the course of my work (I disconnected a daisy-chained neutral to tap a smoke detector to it) my voltage detector decided to tell me that actually the neutral I was working with was now hot (presumably a light somewhere else in the house turned off when I disconnected the neutral). At least I think this was the approximate sequence of events (it's been a while, but it was memorable). Good times! Always worth a double check with that detector!

I've labeled my shared neutral on my panel. I guess I should look into one of these handle-tied breakers. Makes sense. Less convenient though. Just make sure not to disconnect the neutral while you're working, haha.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Seems we're far off topic for the OP's rental but you guys got me curious with all this shared neutral stuff. How does one even share a neutral? There's no sensible way to do it with Romex so you'd have to fill conduit with multiple hots all going to approximately the same place but with only one neutral that then gets daisy-chained from the first destination to the others. Seems so nonsensical that I can't believe it's really "a thing".

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Seems we're far off topic for the OP's rental

Yeah, though neutral issues perfectly explains the OP's issue so it is kind of relevant still. General topic of "return currents on neutral wires." Lol.

You don't have a good neutral, and the car is probably going to show a large voltage drop (due to the neutral voltage deviating from ground potential) when it starts drawing current (I'm still curious how much it was dropping in the OP's case).

There's no sensible way to do it with Romex

Use the three wire Romex (red/black/white) for the run to the first junction box (at least). Simple! I have no idea how you reliably make sure the neutral doesn't get overloaded though because you have to be very careful about which phase is which in the breaker box (can't rearrange breakers without danger, at least if I'm thinking about this correctly). The color coding and handle-ties I guess can help with this - make sure red is always on one phase and black on the other. No idea what the code says or what an electrician does.

The hot wires on my shared neutral are both black though, lol. Opposite phases though. Looking at my panel (just now) though I suspect I may actually have more shared neutrals than I thought - there's a lot of three-wire Romex used. Makes me nervous since I've moved a few breakers around. Hmm...

Very very important to save copper. So important. Probably saved like $20 on my house in 1989 dollars.

 

[Silicon Desert]

totally agree, there just is really nothing running at all. we've turned off the AC, no appliances are running. yes, the water heater remains on and so does the fridge. have tried outlets inside in various parts of the house, etc, same situation with all of them.

by your comment, I think you missed his point. It doesn't matter what the AC is doing since it is on a separate 240 circuit and likely those other items are on different circuit. That outside outlet is usually thru-connected to an outlet on the opposite side of the wall. Just focus on that circuit, not the other ones. And just to be technical, you are talking about a 120 vac circuit. We haven't had 110 in USA in over 50 years, yet old-timers still refer to it as such. Not that big a difference. Obviously though, the problem was something else more serious.

 

[RayK]

I always thought it was 117VAC. But then again, I AM an old-timer .

 

[Silicon Desert]

I always thought it was 117VAC. But then again, I AM an old-timer .

Hey, my buddy Fred Flintstone is here Actually I am an old-timer as well. I agree, some folks refer to 117. And sure, it could be that in some areas as I am betting you know this. Depending on a lot of local factors it can be lower or higher than the "nominal" 120 supply. I guess I am getting off topic, yet think we are all talking about the same thing.