Help Me Decide Between Long Range and Performance

[MikeyC]

An electric MAY have higher torque output at the wheel at *a* reference speed -- say 50mph -- but by staying fixed on that shorter ratio, it'll burn through the RPM curve more quickly and into the EMF-induced torque drop off.

Modern transmissions are 6sp+, and in the Camaro they are available in 8- and 10- (!!!) speeds to minimize ratio decrease and optimize sampling of RPM curve.

Ultimately, the power curve tells the tale.

100-200kph i.e. 62mph-120mph, pretty much any 400hp car will beat the Model 3 Performance: M340i, Mustang V8, E92 M3, RS4, M2, A45, 718 Spyder/GT4, etc

I think you're missing the point. Both (EV and ICE) do the same thing: they both lose torque to the wheels as speed increases. Even if you could keep your ICE car AT peak torque using gearing, every time you upshift, torque to the wheels steps down each time. Since most EV's (Taycan excluded) have one gear, the EV's torque will decline at a smooth slope, but it still declines. It's kind of like comparing the charging curve of an EV like a bolt that has significant step-downs at predetermined points vs a car like a Tesla that has a smooth, steadily declining curve.

If you overlay the torque to the wheels from an ICE vs Tesla with close to the same rated HP/TQ output, it'd look something like the attached. In reality, if we're talking Tesla vs ICE with similar HP/TQ ratings, the ICE isn't likely to start accelerating faster until maybe 110-120 MPH. At that point, the losses from back EMF of the electric motor will be less efficient than taking the losses from gearing plus drivetrain losses on the ICE.

Mike

 

[Cuervo-E]

I am in the market for a new car since trade in values are little higher than usual and tesla offered me what I would consider fair for my '19 Camaro 2SS.

Today I test drove a model 3 long range because they didn't have a performance version at the store. I liked everything about that long range version. Ride, handling, features etc. But I wasn't really sold on it. Coming from a 455hp car with 0-60 4sec it just didn't feel any faster than my camaro. However this is all based off my butt dyno.

After coming back to store they let me test drive a Model Y performance version and long story short I can tell I am very sold on it. Also, I know that Model 3 performance will be even faster than Model Y performance.

So here is my question: is Model 3 performance actually worth it? There is like $10k difference ($48k vs $58k) between LR vs P. Do you guys think Performance is $10k better than Long Range?

I mean I would enjoy taking mustangs, challengers, chargers to gapplebess but trading off 40 miles range and paying that extra money make me think about it.

Also I was told performance version's real world mileage is less than advertised 315 miles. Is this correct? Could anyone give me their inputs about real world ranges on both performance and long range versions? This will be my daily driver in Ohio. So the car will definitely will see sub 32degress and snow.

One more thing for you to consider is that the P version is only faster than LR from a stand still but once it is rolling the difference is negligible, so you ma want to consider saving $10k, add the boost and take on those muscle cars while rolling vs standstill . at the end of the day it all depends on how bad you want the meanest dog all around. I would def get the P if I was 20 years younger. 47 now

 

[MikeyC]

One more thing for you to consider is that the P version is only faster than LR from a stand still but once it is rolling the difference is negligible, so you ma want to consider saving $10k, add the boost and take on those muscle cars while rolling vs standstill . at the end of the day it all depends on how bad you want the meanest dog all around. I would def get the P if I was 20 years younger. 47 now

I don't think it's going to matter much when you race them. If you race a muscle car from a standstill, they'll spin and you'll be able to put down the power so you'll beat them in either case. With that said, there's always someone faster no matter what car you have. There are muscle cars and there are MUSCLE cars. Some can have 800 HP so if you test those already going highway speeds, you're likely never going to pull ahead. Take those on from a standstill: you'll see them (and smoke) in your rearview.

Here's a good example of a Model 3 going against an Audi RS5 with similar power. Watch the second roll race where the Audi was already in the proper gear, racing from a 50 MPH roll. It took the Audi until 125 MPH to pass the Model 3. The Audi was probably just starting to out-accelerate the Model 3 at maybe 110 MPH but by then, they also have to make up for the gap.

Also, one personal example. I took my 2015 Challenger SRT to the dragstrip many times. The best I could ever run was 12.14 @ 114.5 MPH with no problem hooking up on the sticky track. That's a 475 HP/475 TQ car so a decent match on paper to a M3P. But the M3P runs 11.7 @ 115 which means even at the end of the 1/4 mile doing 115 MPH, the Challenger still wasn't catching the M3P. And both cars are similar weight as well.

Mike

 

[NinjaFoot]

One more thing for you to consider is that the P version is only faster than LR from a stand still but once it is rolling the difference is negligible, so you ma want to consider saving $10k, add the boost and take on those muscle cars while rolling vs standstill . at the end of the day it all depends on how bad you want the meanest dog all around. I would def get the P if I was 20 years younger. 47 now

I am 29 years old. Right now I feel like it is better for me to keep that $10k in my savings rather than stretching my budget out for something that's a "want" not a "need."

The reason why I making the switch from Camaro is financial to begin with. I am letting it go before depreciation takes a bigger hit. I have had so much fun with it in 2 years and 23k miles. One of best cars I have ever driven and the best car I have owned. I can't wait to go on camaro forums and let them know I traded my 2SS for a model 3 and let them grill me all the way to the moon and back lol.

 

[NinjaFoot]

One more question:

Do both Performance and Long Range have the same 82kw battery and the same motors?

 

[Knightshade]

One more question:

Do both Performance and Long Range have the same 82kw battery and the same motors?

AFAIK in the US all LR cars have the same battery from panasonic-- the EU apparently has some differences when they get Model 3s from China because they multi-source their battery packs.

The P and LR AWD have the same front motor.

They currently have different rear motors-- the P has the 980, the LR AWD the 990.

NOTE: They USED TO have the same rear motor, through early-mid 2019- then the LR AWD switched to the 990... I believe over time everything but the P switched to the 990.

It is presumed to be a lower cost, lower performance, motor.

Which is why if you have a LR AWD with a 980 you could be software upgraded to a full P (if Tesla allowed it, which officially they don't)- while everyone with a 990 is limited to just the acceleration boot upgrade.

Same is reflected in aftermarket performance mods- there's a module that works on all LR AWD cars, similar to the AB...and a more expensive one that gives your LR AWD P performance, but only works on cars with 980 motors.

 

[MikeyC]

I am 29 years old. Right now I feel like it is better for me to keep that $10k in my savings rather than stretching my budget out for something that's a "want" not a "need."

The reason why I making the switch from Camaro is financial to begin with. I am letting it go before depreciation takes a bigger hit. I have had so much fun with it in 2 years and 23k miles. One of best cars I have ever driven and the best car I have owned. I can't wait to go on camaro forums and let them know I traded my 2SS for a model 3 and let them grill me all the way to the moon and back lol.

That should be fun. When I was dragging my Challenger SRT it was a close race with the Camaro SS/2SS. With good launches I was usually able to just edge them out running 12.1-12.2 against their 12.2-12.3. Stock to stock with the Camaro getting a clean launch, it'd be a close race with the LR AWD vs the Camaro with the Camaro maybe just coming past you at the end. Add acceleration boost and you'll beat them every time unless they're modified.

I still love the muscle cars. I had gen 4 Camaros but never the latest one. I drove a 2020 SS at the dealer but passed on it due to limited rear seat room. The Camaro beats the Challenger for handling and would, in general, be more fun to drive but I needed a bigger back seat so I settled for the boatier Challenger. My 2 cents is the Model 3 will handle closer to the Camaro. The Model 3 feels more "refined", kinda like a German sport sedan whereas the Camaro got its handling in a more "brute force" way: stiffer suspension and fatter tires. That's the best way I can explain it. If you're into tire smoke, drifting, and that sort of thing, the LR AWD won't provide you with that: the M3P with track mode would get you closer to that. But if you're not into those "showoff" aspects, I think you'll be impressed with the Model 3. I was always impressed by how well body roll was controlled in the Challenger with it being so heavy but it did start to feel "fat" once you start pushing it in corners. The Model 3 is even more impressive because that feels even lighter and more nimble.

My 1 cent; I deducted a penny because I typed too much.

Mike

 

[TexasTezla]

Range v Performance...do you need the fastest 0-60 times? Do you need the extra 50 miles real world range? In my case I don't need either one. I enjoy the occasional sprint for sure. As for range, I charge at home and on trips I estimate I spend an additional 45 minute charging on a 12 hour journey over an LR. I went for the P solely because 12 hour trips for me are few and far between. Just get whatever better suits your needs.

 

[JDMerica]

An electric MAY have higher torque output at the wheel at *a* reference speed -- say 50mph -- but by staying fixed on that shorter ratio, it'll burn through the RPM curve more quickly and into the EMF-induced torque drop off.

Modern transmissions are 6sp+, and in the Camaro they are available in 8- and 10- (!!!) speeds to minimize ratio decrease and optimize sampling of RPM curve.

Ultimately, the power curve tells the tale.

100-200kph i.e. 62mph-120mph, pretty much any 400hp car will beat the Model 3 Performance: M340i, Mustang V8, E92 M3, RS4, M2, A45, 718 Spyder/GT4, etc

LOL, I don't know where you're getting these sources for highway rolls. There are lots of cars that will walk the P from a 40 or 60 roll but it's going to take more than a 340i or a stock mustang. You're looking further into the hellcat territory.

 

[Apprunner]

LOL, I don't know where you're getting these sources for highway rolls. There are lots of cars that will walk the P from a 40 or 60 roll but it's going to take more than a 340i or a stock mustang. You're looking further into the hellcat territory.

I've completely plastered a 5.0L mustang and M340 from a 40 roll. Wasn't close.

Edit: found many videos on Youtube proving it. example below

 

[holmgang]

I think you're missing the point. Both (EV and ICE) do the same thing: they both lose torque to the wheels as speed increases. Even if you could keep your ICE car AT peak torque using gearing, every time you upshift, torque to the wheels steps down each time. Since most EV's (Taycan excluded) have one gear, the EV's torque will decline at a smooth slope, but it still declines. It's kind of like comparing the charging curve of an EV like a bolt that has significant step-downs at predetermined points vs a car like a Tesla that has a smooth, steadily declining curve.

If you overlay the torque to the wheels from an ICE vs Tesla with close to the same rated HP/TQ output, it'd look something like the attached. In reality, if we're talking Tesla vs ICE with similar HP/TQ ratings, the ICE isn't likely to start accelerating faster until maybe 110-120 MPH. At that point, the losses from back EMF of the electric motor will be less efficient than taking the losses from gearing plus drivetrain losses on the ICE.

Mike

No point is being missed. Both drivetrain type will suffer degradation of torque output at wheel as a function of road speed - one from needing to change ratios while motor output is relatively constant, and one from motor suffering drop off while ratio is fixed.

We're looking at power curve. Because we're interested in rate of work (from any given speed), and assumes transmission is designed sufficiently to take care of rates.

We're "arguing" about the steepness of the curves, and where the curve may cross over. It's clear single-gear EV is more negatively steeper -- where it has more advantage at lower road speed -- but loses advantage at higher road speeds. I'm saying for a similarly (peak-powered rated) 450hp car , that crossover is more at low highway speed (say 60mph) , whereas you claim its at much higher (say 120mph).

First, we can simply plot Power vs Road speed and see where that crossover is.

Second, we can also measure accel results, commonly done with 100-200kph (60-120mph) as popular metric.

Here's a good example of a Model 3 going against an Audi RS5 with similar power. Watch the second roll race where the Audi was already in the proper gear, racing from a 50 MPH roll. I

1. 2nd video they're not racing from 50mph, they're racing from 30mph!!!
2. they're not in the "proper gear". theyre starting undergeared in 2nd. most 1st tops at 40mph. starting at 30mph, being 1st would give them higher wheel torque than being in 2nd.

this video is simply NOT testing the parameter that we're talking about. nevermind the fact that the ice cars would not be at full boost if theyre starting from partial throttle. if we want to measure 50-90mph, 60-120mph, etc ,the numbers are out there.

 

[JDMerica]

1. 2nd video they're not racing from 50mph, they're racing from 30mph!!!
2. they're not in the "proper gear". theyre starting undergeared in 2nd. most 1st tops at 40mph. starting at 30mph, being 1st would give them higher wheel torque than being in 2nd.

this video is simply NOT testing the parameter that we're talking about. nevermind the fact that the ice cars would not be at full boost if theyre starting from partial throttle. if we want to measure 50-90mph, 60-120mph, etc ,the numbers are out there.

Spoken like a true bench racer, I'll remember these excuses to look out for from my next kills.

"Come on babe, we both know my car is way faster in -3k DA. The road had some dirt on it and I didn't shift fast enough. Now lets go to DQ and get that victory sundae."

 

[Apprunner]

No point is being missed. Both drivetrain type will suffer degradation of torque output at wheel as a function of road speed - one from needing to change ratios while motor output is relatively constant, and one from motor suffering drop off while ratio is fixed.

We're looking at power curve. Because we're interested in rate of work (from any given speed), and assumes transmission is designed sufficiently to take care of rates.

We're "arguing" about the steepness of the curves, and where the curve may cross over. It's clear single-gear EV is more negatively steeper -- where it has more advantage at lower road speed -- but loses advantage at higher road speeds. I'm saying for a similarly (peak-powered rated) 450hp car , that crossover is more at low highway speed (say 60mph) , whereas you claim its at much higher (say 120mph).

First, we can simply plot Power vs Road speed and see where that crossover is.

Second, we can also measure accel results, commonly done with 100-200kph (60-120mph) as popular metric.



1. 2nd video they're not racing from 50mph, they're racing from 30mph!!!
2. they're not in the "proper gear". theyre starting undergeared in 2nd. most 1st tops at 40mph. starting at 30mph, being 1st would give them higher wheel torque than being in 2nd.

this video is simply NOT testing the parameter that we're talking about. nevermind the fact that the ice cars would not be at full boost if theyre starting from partial throttle. if we want to measure 50-90mph, 60-120mph, etc ,the numbers are out there.

Did you watch the side mirror? He was pulling at 60 mph. By the time he got to 100, he was way ahead. This wasn’t remotely close.

 

[Mahamilto]

If you can afford the performance, buy the performance. Period.

Like other have said, the reason the performance doesn’t get the range of the LR is wheels and tires, and you seem performance oriented to the degree you would be putting wheels and tires on to get handling increases. So the range question is completely moot.

Even if you go wheels and tires on the LR, you won’t get the full handling complement of the performance due to springs etc. If you go with springs and coil overs on the LR (with the aforementioned wheels and tires), you will get that back, but now you are spending on mods that will not add value back (and may even detract from resale) where as the performance will keep its value better.

Brakes even more so. While the cooling isn’t the best for running longer autocross sessions, the brakes on the performance are far superior when you do need/want them.

And yes, you can get the boost, but it’s still not going to keep up when all things are equal (SOC, temps, tires, wheels, etc).

Don’t get me wrong, the M3LR is a great car and a ton of car for the money, but if you can sling the money for the difference, do it.

And if you can’t, think long and hard before adding mods that have zero monetary resale benefit and may actually lower the cars value (suspension stuff I’m looking at you). Because if money is an issue, resale should be a priority to some degree.

Whichever you go, enjoy. They are both great cars.

 

[Xambler]

One more thing for you to consider is that the P version is only faster than LR from a stand still but once it is rolling the difference is negligible, so you ma want to consider saving $10k, add the boost and take on those muscle cars while rolling vs standstill . at the end of the day it all depends on how bad you want the meanest dog all around. I would def get the P if I was 20 years younger. 47 now

I’m 64 but the stealth makes me feel 20. Who wants to feel older ?

 

[MikeyC]

Sounds like good advice to me. I'm into performance and if I was younger and still did road courses, the extra $8k would have been well worth it. For me, I couldn't quite justify it given my lifestyle: work at home, drive very little, and maybe go to the dragstrip just for fun once or twice a year.

Mike

 

[Caliboi707]

I went from a 2018 Zl1 Camaro to a 19 model 3 LR and bought the acceleration boost as soon as it came out. Was between the full self driving package back when it was cheaper or the performance and just went with the FSD. Regular LR was fine felt similar to my charger scatpack I had before my Zl1 but I wanted a little more and the boost definitely made it more fun especially for a daily. I am still able to run a 3.8 0-60 (3.5 with rollout) and an 11.8 quarter with my draggy which isnt to far off of my Camaro on a bad day.

 

[Xambler]

Range v Performance...do you need the fastest 0-60 times? Do you need the extra 50 miles real world range? In my case I don't need either one. I enjoy the occasional sprint for sure. As for range, I charge at home and on trips I estimate I spend an additional 45 minute charging on a 12 hour journey over an LR. I went for the P solely because 12 hour trips for me are few and far between. Just get whatever better suits your needs.

Perf model 3 does well on long trips with minimal delay in charging if you optimize charging speeds with more stops...check out “out of spec motoring” videos...many cross country trips in a perf model 3. Here is a video from his massive road trip series last year in the model 3...and a picture of him mudding in I think a model X . He also has interesting video driving the dragons tail...and setting the ev record for cannonball in a rwd model 3, etc. Also good way to see how various super chargers compare.

 

[Black306]

1. 2nd video they're not racing from 50mph, they're racing from 30mph!!!
2. they're not in the "proper gear". theyre starting undergeared in 2nd. most 1st tops at 40mph. starting at 30mph, being 1st would give them higher wheel torque than being in 2nd.

this video is simply NOT testing the parameter that we're talking about. nevermind the fact that the ice cars would not be at full boost if theyre starting from partial throttle. if we want to measure 50-90mph, 60-120mph, etc ,the numbers are out there.

 

[Black306]

... I would def get the P if I was 20 years younger. 47 now

Speak for yourself, dude! I'm not far behind [age wise] and I picked up a Performance a year ago. If there was a faster option, I'd go for it!



J/P I understand my considerations are not your considerations, and vise versa.