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help me out folks - left my cable at home - 50miles typical range left/45 mile trip

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working too hard as usual.
forgot to charge at home last night
forgot to throw the umc in the car this morning (well it wasnt plugged in as my usual reminder) so cant charge at the office.

so am at the office now car showing 50 miles range, and it's a 45 mile trip home.
The car is now switched off, so minimal vampire drain through the day.

I'll be honest that there are a few options for other charging on the way so I can give in if i have to, but can this be done? So I'm treating this as a fun exercise really.

Right now with the colder weather and my usual lead foot I am typically getting ~450wh/mile :rolleyes:

But what does 50 miles "typical" range mean? is that 50 miles at ?300wh/mile - what is this mysterious 50 mile figure.

what else to consider from here?
 
Unfortunately, your "50 miles", will no longer be 50 miles when your battery is cold. You may even 'lose' 20 miles off this figure as the cold battery has less energy than a fully warmed up one.

Best option is to find a local type 2 and 'sit' for a while to get 1) your battery warm and 2) enough charge to get home.
 
Thanks for the concern - as I said I there's a few places I can charge if necessary, it's more a fun exercise to see if it can be done, how the 50 miles "typical" range translates to reality, what wh/mi I need to keep to and what speed this equates to. Everything off, warm coat and a coffee. Never been concerned about range anxiety as these things have plenty range, so its a new experience for me and going to have some fun see if I can do it.

So, car is off now.
Will switch range mode on when I leave,
also no audio
no a/c, heated anything
leave before dark so no headlights just drls
cant inflate the tyres further so thats a bit of a drag-sorry pun

what have i missed?
 
o ye of little faith ...

left with 52 miles showing.
Arrived with 2 miles remaining

50 "typical" miles used for 42.2 miles route at 278 wh/mi with temp 4-5C/40F; avg speed 36.7mph
(aka 10 mph below limits and max 50mph in 70 limit)

so looks like "typical" miles must be about 278/50*42.2 = 235wh/mi - yeah like heck you're going to be able to achieve that in a P100D on staggered 21's o_O

Data reference for all anyways.

upload_2019-1-19_15-19-7.png


And yes I can confirm I had the Scotty mode "she's not gonna make it cap'n" message a couple of times.
Another achievment unlocked then :D
 
so looks like "typical" miles must be about 278/50*42.2 = 235wh/mi - yeah like heck you're going to be able to achieve that in a P100D on staggered 21's o_O

Something unusual going on here, because 'typical' miles are normally much more than that - something over 300Wh/mi. You can see the approximate number from the graphs on the energy screen where there's a dotted line for "typical".

And 'typical' seems to have been defined as expected range at constant 70mph with all other conditions favourable.

So either you've accidentally got it set for rated rather than typical, or else some loss of range has occurred that doesn't get accounted for in the consumption figures. Battery getting colder than when it started, or just inaccuracy in the measurements that gave the original figure seem most likely. Actual heater (or battery heater) use should be accounted for in the figures.
 
Something unusual going on here, because 'typical' miles are normally much more than that - something over 300Wh/mi. You can see the approximate number from the graphs on the energy screen where there's a dotted line for "typical".

And 'typical' seems to have been defined as expected range at constant 70mph with all other conditions favourable...

think you have them swapped mate Rated is higher than Typical.

"Rated" is theoretical (really ought to be WLTP these days) and at max charge usually tells me I have something like 350 miles range - no idea where that nonsense figure comes from as the thing is only rated 315mi on the website anway.

"Typical" is supposedly tuned to regularly updated data from the model/fleet, including seasonal conditions - well according to Tesla anyway.

I kinda knew it was all bllx which is why i thought it'd be fun to see exactly what you'd have to do to match the figures. Must admit to being a bit shocked at the data though even taking into account the cold weather.

I do think the way the range figures are displayed has evolved from earlier times, as I recall the 85D was smack on 300wh/mile to reach whatever the displayed range was a couple of years back now.

All probably summarised as lies, damned lies and statistics really.

but I'm home and nearly thawed out now; another scotch should about do it - and that'll do me thanks Tesla.
 
think you have them swapped mate Rated is higher than Typical.

Not in Wh/mile terms - rated gives a bigger range number, so a smaller Wh/mile to achieve it.

You are reporting a smaller than usual Wh/mile to achieve the displayed range, so having your car set for Rated would have explained your figures. But apparently you don't have it set that way so there must be another explanation.

Usually, beating Typical range doesn't take such aggressive hypermiling, at least on my car. In summer, ordinary A-road driving will often beat it, and 60mph motorway driving will also beat it comfortably even in reasonably cold conditions. Doing a test similar to yours puts the number around 300Wh/mile.

So there's something different about your situation. Maybe the car/software is different. Maybe you will get a different number if you try it again.
 
Thanks for the concern - as I said I there's a few places I can charge if necessary, it's more a fun exercise to see if it can be done, how the 50 miles "typical" range translates to reality, what wh/mi I need to keep to and what speed this equates to. Everything off, warm coat and a coffee. Never been concerned about range anxiety as these things have plenty range, so its a new experience for me and going to have some fun see if I can do it.

So, car is off now.
Will switch range mode on when I leave,
also no audio
no a/c, heated anything
leave before dark so no headlights just drls
cant inflate the tyres further so thats a bit of a drag-sorry pun

what have i missed?
Typical miles are usually very close to actual miles, so you would probably make it home 45 miles if you have 50 typical miles.
But if the car sits for a while and has a cold battery you will lose some. But you will get a bit back as the battery warms during discharge.
So I say "Go for it!".
 
@arg, indeed further discussion required ...

(figures typical/rated)

The car is now sitting 90% charge @260/ 326 mi

assume 90KWH (of 100KWH) available
-346wh/mi typ : 276wh/mi rated - plausible

(anecdotally I believe an MS 100D is rated at 330/260 which affirms)

if 90KWH is 260 miles typical then 50 miles is 90/260*50 = 17KWH

according to the above 17KWH at 346/276 is 50/61 miles
at the displayed 278 wh/mi I should have been able to travel 17KWH/278 = 64 miles; not just scraping 42 miles as i did.

Either the displayed wh/miles is wrong; or the displayed range is wrong.
It would be easy to think the wh/mile is wrong but 278wh/mi is very plausible for the speeds used for the trip, temps etc.

What I suspect is going on is that the car is only showing the transmission power used and not showing or calculating the ancilliary services (low as there was no cabin heating or even headlights) or battery heating power required. 2-3KWH used for "other" functions brings the figures into line. Most likely then the battery heating is not being computed resulting in a false typical range being displayed. As the vehicle has knowledge of the outside temperature and particularly the pack temperature this can be simply included in any range calculation.

Should the above be corect then it would seem remiss of Tesla not to include this in calculated typical range, the result of course is dangerous to Tesla in costs and negative PR when vehicles prematurely run out of charge.

curiously the only time I looked at wh/mi and range figures historically (85D) I recall being impressed that they were pretty much on the money esp. when you took into acount @wk057 battery findings. Just possibly, did something get screwed in V9 then, albeit most of the changes seem to be elsewhere?
 
What I suspect is going on is that the car is only showing the transmission power used and not showing or calculating the ancilliary services (low as there was no cabin heating or even headlights) or battery heating power required. 2-3KWH used for "other" functions brings the figures into line. Most likely then the battery heating is not being computed resulting in a false typical range being displayed. As the vehicle has knowledge of the outside temperature and particularly the pack temperature this can be simply included in any range calculation.

I'm pretty sure that heater use (both cabin and battery) while driving does get included in the Wh/mile figure. In some cases, usage while parked (if the heater is running while charging or if the car is not "on" for driving), then that usage doesn't get included, which is relevant for cases where people try to make the usage add up over several trips, but not in your case as it was a single trip with the car "on" all the time and so everything should be included.

There is the chemical effect that when the battery is cold then you get less Wh out of it than if it is warm. The car certainly makes some attempt to factor this into the displayed range - in extreme cold, you get the fuel gauge with part of the bar blue and a snowflake symbol, representing range which is lost but would be regained by warming up the battery. One guess is that in your experiment the car got the range wrong by miscalculating this factor (ie. it assumed the battery would warm up during the drive more than it did in fact).
 
Glad you got home okay @thegruf !

The "what average Wh/mi do you need to match typical range" question is a pet peeve of mine.

I've logged multiple trips in my S70 and best fit lines consistently show that if I average 285-287 Wh/mi 1 real mile uses 1 typical mile of range. Running heaters, lights, a/c etc. makes no difference as long as the car doesn't turn off (or is only off for short periods so background drain is negligible). So the implication is that the car's trip stats track all energy usage as long as it is "on".

However, a "typical" consumption line is plotted on the energy meter at 311 Wh/mi. This could be the figure that @arg is quoting. But in my experience if I averaged 311 Wh/mi on a trip I will have used more than one typical mile per real mile.

I'm very suspicious of the 311 figure. When my car was brand new it showed a maximum range of 225 typical miles when charged to 100% and it might be coincidence but I noticed that 70 kWh / 225 = 311 Wh/mi. But as is well documented the available capacity of a S70 is somewhat less than 70 kWh, more like 64.5 kWh based on the trip stats I've collected. And guess what, 64.5 kWh / 225 = 287 Wh/mi, which is the average consumption I need to match to achieve the typical range figure.
 
However, a "typical" consumption line is plotted on the energy meter at 311 Wh/mi. This could be the figure that @arg is quoting.

Well, there's a line a couple of pixels up from "300", so it might be at 311, but I can't read it to any real accuracy. However, a number somewhere around there matches up with my experience.

I haven't monitored this really closely since the software update that introduced the trip energy graph - nowadays that's always what I use for any trip where range is demanding. However, when I first had the car and that feature wasn't in the software (and also there were hardly any superchargers), the standard thing to do on any trip was to watch miles-to-destination on the nav, subtract that from available range on the fuel gauge to give a margin figure, and keep checking the margin every few minutes to see if you were gaining or losing relative to Typical range. I have a note from back in that era when I started with 214 miles on the gauge, drove 208.3 miles at a displayed 290Wh/mile; unfortunately I didn't record how many miles I had left when I got home, but it was probably about 20 - so I was getting better than Typical range at 290Wh/mile. Conversely, at normal "trying to do 70mph" sort of motorway driving in summer I get about 330Wh/mile and get a bit less than Typical range. So for my car 311 is very believable.

It also roughly matches the capacity calculation: my "85" battery gave 245 miles at 100% when new, and is reputed to have 77.5kWh usable, which would give 316 Wh/mile.

It's possible things have been screwed up in recent software, though I don't think so. As it happens, I had a very tight journey a couple of weeks ago (for the first time in ages!), though unfortunately I didn't know it was going to be controversial so I didn't take notes - all I can say now is that the numbers on the screen all matched my expectations. I was at Stonehenge with 50-something typical on the gauge and 48 miles to run to Fleet supercharger. The Nav told me I would have 3% at destination. I set off in queuing traffic and it dropped to 2%. I then hypermiled vigorously over the 10 miles to the decision point for diverting to the Geniepoint charger at Thruxton and got it up to 5% so carried on (low 200's Wh/mile); by the time of deciding to skip Sutton Scotney I was over 6% and driving slightly faster; once on the M3 it was obvious I was going to make it so was doing 70mph. Can't remember exactly how many miles I arrived with, but it would have been pretty much dead-on typical range for the journey.

Obviously your S70 will be slightly more efficient than my S85 (more so if yours is a S70D), so I'd expect a slightly lower figure maybe 286 is right for you. OTOH @thegruf 's P100D is supposed to be significantly worse than yours and maybe even worse than mine, so 235 isn't plausible there.

I'm not sure how many versions of "Typical" there are - if it's just three numbers for RWD/D/PxxD, or if it's been calculated for individual models, or even things like the wheel size (IIRC, the car knows what size wheels it is supposed to have fitted).

There's always been some kind of fudge-factor involved in the range calculation, as they have always tried to guarantee it will never run out before zero (ie. any uncertainty in the range estimation is put on the negative side). In the earliest software (before I got my car) it seemed to be very crude - the starting range after charging would be estimated with one Wh/mile value, then as you drove it would decrement based on actual Wh used at a higher Wh/mile, and people would often report driving long distances after the display reached zero. More recent software has blended this better (and is probably much more accurate at making the capacity estimate in the first place). I think all the fudging goes into the displayed range number and the Wh used display is straightforwardly reporting the energy measured at the battery terminals, though the whole thing is always going to be an approximation - at a given state of charge, the total Wh you can draw out of it will be greater if you drive slowly than if you drive hard, since the harder driving gives a higher current and hence more energy wasted inside the battery than never makes it to the point where you are measuring at the terminals. And then again the whole thing is temperature sensitive.
 
asked Tesla to tell me how the typical range was calculated as I am concerned that if there is an error this could lead to Tesla getting bad publicity.

Unsurprisingly they "didnt know"; but agreed that the figures didnt make sense. They even called me back when my mobile briefly lost signal - how good is that? Well done guys.

Slightly more suprisingly I got a message today saying they were remote diagnosing my car.

- will let you know if anythong comes of it

(it's little things like this that makes owning a Tesla such a refreshing experience, alt: Audi dealer (genuine occurence)- this is an Audi problem nothing to do with us, you'll need to contact them; Audi UK - this is a dealer error not our responsibility you need to talk to your dealer ... ffs)
 
Well, there's a line a couple of pixels up from "300", so it might be at 311, but I can't read it to any real accuracy.
I noticed that the average and typical lines on the energy consumption graph are only drawn directly on top of each other at a specific average consumption value - which is where I'm getting the 311 Wh/mi figure (for my car). Occasionally one of the average consumption figures matches 311 and I see something like the the pic below, but the lines separate if the average changes even +/- 1 Wh/mi:

IMAG0511_311_Typical.jpg


There's always been some kind of fudge-factor involved in the range calculation, as they have always tried to guarantee it will never run out before zero
I guess this is the root cause of my peeve, since (for my car at least) if I were to match the any of the historical average consumption figures (5/15/30 mi) quoted on the energy meter I would run out of energy before I achieved the projected range (specifically I'd be short by about 7%).

Some examples, all taken when the state of charge is 77% = 171 mi (Typical):

IMG_4532_5.JPG

IMG_4531_15.JPG

IMG_4530_30.JPG


Battery capacity estimates from the above:
Energy remaining ... 100% equivalent [kWh]
121 mi @ 435 Wh/mi = 52.6 ... 68.4
113 mi @ 467 Wh/mi = 52.8 ... 68.5
105 mi @ 504 Wh/mi = 52.9 ... 68.7

So the estimated range stats displayed in my car seems to be using an available battery capacity of ~68.5 kWh, too high for an S70. I've logged energy used for many longer trips (when, say, the SOC goes down be more than 50%) and back-calculating available capacity it consistently works out around 63-64 kWh (more like 64-65 when the car was new, it's done about 20,000 miles now). I guess the variation will be due to rounding errors and differing heating losses in the battery due to different speeds/battery currents, but I've never seen any data that would suggest a capacity approaching 68+ kWh of available energy.

A couple of footnotes
- This might just be an issue for the S70 (mine is RWD). As you point out @arg there are different "typical" consumption figures for different model variants and maybe the S85's, for example, don't have this problem.
- I haven't seen much variation in my calculations over 2 1/2 years but I do appreciate there have been changes following software updates in the past - perhaps this was more of an issue pre-version 7, again as you have pointed out @arg .
- The Trip energy prediction pretty much renders all of the above irrelevant anyway. I've found it unfailingly accurate, it's a brilliant tool with the combination of the predicted SOC being updated as you progress plus warning nags ("don't exceed x mph to reach your destination") doing all the tricky calculations for you in a very intuitive way & helping you squeeze every last drop out of the battery if you're a bit short on range.