Help understanding the numerous trims so I can purchase

[MoparGuy]

I am not an SUV fan either. But the Mach E really isn't an SUV except in marketing. It has very low ground clearance. It's really a tall car with more headroom.

Still, sounds like you are going to hate the Tesla if you do get one.

Still Mach E not my type of car.
I am a reasonable man, I pointed out the cons of a Tesla but to me nothing is perfect, but I cannot dismiss the fact that the car is fast and cost nothing to own, that's my #1 on the list of requirements.

In normal times I'd get a used Hellcat at the price of a used Model 3P but we live in abnormal times now, V8 Mopars are overvalued now due to the very limited supply.

 

[TLLMRRJ]

Still Mach E not my type of car.
I am a reasonable man, I pointed out the cons of a Tesla but to me nothing is perfect, but I cannot dismiss the fact that the car is fast and cost nothing to own, that's my #1 on the list of requirements.

In normal times I'd get a used Hellcat at the price of a used Model 3P but we live in abnormal times now, V8 Mopars are overvalued now due to the very limited supply.

Why do you say it costs nothing to own? The only car I have that costs nothing to own is my gated V12 Lamborghini. It's gone up in value about the same amount as a new Model 3 Performance since I bought it.

The Model 3 is definitely not an appreciating asset, and while it's under warranty, it's cheap to own. But so is any daily driver modern car under warranty. The only difference is that you get to skip an engine oil change every year, but it's not a big savings. Gas is pretty cheap these days too, and installing a home charger eats up a lot of the savings. Have you priced insurance on the Tesla? Not cheap. Tires don't seem to last too long for Model 3 owners, and are expensive. A cracked windshield isn't cheap, nor is the PPF to protect the soft paint, etc, etc.

 

[Phlier]

Two “pretty much” statements do not make a right statement.



Any evidence that a Stealth is any more “pre-thrashed” than an P+ or an AWD+ on the used market? In my case, it’s exactly the opposite—I baby my rare and irreplaceable Stealth! YMMV

Yup, I never go back-and-forth with guys that are in the "the LR AWD with Performance Boost is equivalent to the Stealth performance" camp. They're entitled to their opinion. My opinion is different than theirs, and neither of us will convince the other to change sides. But I just gotta add my two cents here.... I agree with ya, MJP. Guys can go ahead and tell themselves that all they want, but the acceleration time difference is there, the track mode is there, and the retained resale value is there. IMO, those aren't "pretty much" the same. But again, they're welcome to their own opinion.

For the same two thousand dollars that guys are now paying for the performance boost option on LR AWD, we got our Stealth performance with better acceleration and track mode. It's really a shame that Tesla took so much value out of it. Personally, I would've loved to see Tesla offer the full on Stealth upgrade option to LR AWD owners, but since there is a motor difference between newer LR AWD and Performance Model 3's, that just wasn't an option. A real shame, too. That would've been a lot of goodwill that Tesla could have created. Sure, it would've made our cars less of a "unicorn," but I'd rather have the goodwill than a unicorn, TBH.

As far as being "pre-thrashed." The verdict has yet to be given, but my little hunch is that we'll see much less wear on electric vehicle drivetrains that have been driven hard vs. ICE. Electric motors don't have the same type of wear and tear profile that ICE engines do.

I have much less concern about the drivetrain than I do the battery, really.

 

[MoparGuy]

Why do you say it costs nothing to own? The only car I have that costs nothing to own is my gated V12 Lamborghini. It's gone up in value about the same amount as a new Model 3 Performance since I bought it.

The Model 3 is definitely not an appreciating asset, and while it's under warranty, it's cheap to own. But so is any daily driver modern car under warranty. The only difference is that you get to skip an engine oil change every year, but it's not a big savings. Gas is pretty cheap these days too, and installing a home charger eats up a lot of the savings. Have you priced insurance on the Tesla? Not cheap. Tires don't seem to last too long for Model 3 owners, and are expensive. A cracked windshield isn't cheap, nor is the PPF to protect the soft paint, etc, etc.

Well I'll pay insurance on any car I'll own, Insurance quote on a 2018 P is $690 per 6 months, same as my Charger RT, I change my cars every year on average, I've never had any car issues because I don't keep them long, to me the cost of ownership is the price of the car + gas+ depreciation since I don't buy any German cars and always hunt for deals and buy used then depreciation isn't a big cost but hey that's me, everyone thinks different.

 

[Peteski]

Yup, I never go back-and-forth with guys that are in the "the LR AWD with Performance Boost is equivalent to the Stealth performance" camp. They're entitled to their opinion. My opinion is different than theirs, and neither of us will convince the other to change sides. But I just gotta add my two cents here.... I agree with ya, MJP. Guys can go ahead and tell themselves that all they want, but the acceleration time difference is there, the track mode is there, and the retained resale value is there. IMO, those aren't "pretty much" the same. But again, they're welcome to their own opinion.

For the same two thousand dollars that guys are now paying for the performance boost option on LR AWD, we got our Stealth performance with better acceleration and track mode. It's really a shame that Tesla took so much value out of it. Personally, I would've loved to see Tesla offer the full on Stealth upgrade option to LR AWD owners, but since there is a motor difference between newer LR AWD and Performance Model 3's, that just wasn't an option. A real shame, too. That would've been a lot of goodwill that Tesla could have created. Sure, it would've made our cars less of a "unicorn," but I'd rather have the goodwill than a unicorn, TBH.

As far as being "pre-thrashed." The verdict has yet to be given, but my little hunch is that we'll see much less wear on electric vehicle drivetrains that have been driven hard vs. ICE. Electric motors don't have the same type of wear and tear profile that ICE engines do.

I have much less concern about the drivetrain than I do the battery, really.

Do you really think you could tell the difference in accel between a stealth P and a boosted LR AWD?

Anyway my point here was that if you are buying a used M3, then why would you want to pay a hefty premium for a stealth P when you can buy a used LR AWD for much less (and much easier to find) and then add boost to get the kick off the line? Track mode is about the only reason I can think of IF you are going to track it regularly. Otherwise it’s of no practical value.

 

[Phlier]

Do you really think you could tell the difference in accel between a stealth P and a boosted LR AWD?

Anyway my point here was that if you are buying a used M3, then why would you want to pay a hefty premium for a stealth P when you can buy a used LR AWD for much less (and much easier to find) and then add boost to get the kick off the line? Track mode is about the only reason I can think of IF you are going to track it regularly. Otherwise it’s of no practical value.

My opinion is different than theirs, and neither of us will convince the other to change sides.

And let's just leave it at that. No sense in arguing. My opinion is different than yours. I respect your opinion, and request that you do the same.

 

[MJP.P3D-]

Do you really think you could tell the difference in accel between a stealth P and a boosted LR AWD?

Yes! We have both in the family and the difference is abundantly clear. In fact, my Stealth is better off the line than a friend’s P+ (at comparable SOC, of course). Chalk it up to the lighter wheels, or the better suspension, or...? Still, the answer to your original question is an unqualified “yes!”.

Not quite sure why you think removing heavy 20” wheels, heavy brakes and a spoiler from a P+ would make the P- accelerate like an AWD+...seems completely unjustifiable to me. Still, as @Phlier wrote, I, too, will choose to leave it at that. Glad you’re content with the AWD+, and even more pleased that @Phlier and I have our Stealths.

Stay safe.

 

[jbcarioca]

the performance trim is out of my budget, it will cost me $60K OTD, I'd have to stretch myself to get the 2021 LR hoping to make it in Gas saving since I daily drive a Grand Sport Corvette, I am hoping to stay in the $4xK range so that's why I am here asking about which car has the 4.x 0-60.

You can get a new 2020 Performance for $55,000 in California.
2020 Model 3 | Tesla
Have you considered the maintenance and running costs? If $40,000 or so is your limit you should check with Tesla, actually go to a store. They often have trade-ins and demo cars that have not yet been listed. Those should get you a 2018 Performance Model 3. Considering your present wheels don't settle for slower. The Model 3 Performance is really delightful. I've never had a Corvette but have had all the Italians, Germans and English (other than Aston Martin). None have been more fun than the Model 3P. A Morgan Plus 8 was close, but only for twenty minutes or so at a time.

Really, don't take anything less. Your budget can be met with a 2018 Model 3P.

 

[jbcarioca]

It's not that confusing. The "number" is just (roughly) the battery size in kWh -- i.e. range. The "P" would mean it's a Performance model (P85, P85+, P85D, P90D, P100D). The "D" just means AWD instead of RWD. The options across the years changed somewhat, but not all that much. After 2015, most options became standard (cold weather, ultra hi-fi, sunroof, etc).

If your budget in in the $40s, I'd strongly recommend looking at a 2014 or 2015 P85D. You can find P85D models built between Dec 2014 and April 2015 (inclusive) that have the Performance+ suspension (think BMW M5 or AMG handling). A stock P85D would give you a 3.2s 0-60. A rare find is a P85D that had the Ludicrous upgrade performed which improves the 0-60 to 2.8s.

See: Tesla Motors delivers 'ludicrous speed upgrade' for Model S P85D - ExtremeTech

I have a 2014 P85D+ which I absolutely love. My other car is an BMW E39 M5 and guess which car I drive more?

If you don't like the old-style Model S nosecone, look for a P90D (with or without Ludicrous) with the facelift/refreshed front end.

Good luck!

My P85D was a 2014, one of the first ones. The Ludicrous option was really a transformational one. I often wish I had kept mine, but a P3D is nearly as quick and has much better handling. I actually changed because I have a small car preference and love high performance. The S was too big for my taste. I really would prefer smaller than the Model 3 as long as I had the performance. With a Grand Sport the OP seems not to like large dimensions.

 

[CapeOne]

I believe the depreciation here is more of Tesla screwing the owners, after spending couple of hours here at the for sale forum I am surprised to see those$ 130 K, $140K window stickers of model S Teslas when today you can get the Performance for $91K same goes with M3 P, now I can get it for $53.5K in CA, VS back it was $66K like you said for pretty much the same car unless I am missing something, I highly doubt the $53.5K car will be offered at a cheaper price in the future but I could be wrong.

A good part of depreciation is related to actions of the automaker whether it be from price reductions, rebates or whatever. I think there will continue to be price volatility in the EV market going forward due to more and more competition entering the space, production/technology advances and efficiencies, potential changes in tax credits, etc.

 

[arghx7]

@MoparGuy , I think you're doing a disservice with expectations of a Corvette for a Model 3 or even Model S. 4 door cars are never going to have the characteristics of a 2 seat coupe. You should compare the Model 3 to a new 3 series BMW or something.

There basically aren't any EV equivalents of a Corvette. You're jumping across segments. For what it's worth, I have a 2019 AWD Model 3 with acceleration boost and the 18 inch wheels, a 2019 Mustang with 2.3 turbo engine and manual trans (wife's car), and a 2002 Miata with manual trans. In the past I had a 2005 CTS-V and a 2017 Challenger R/T with manual trans, as well as a '95 Rx-7.

I understand what you're saying about the lack of engagement in an EV but... that's kind of the point. The effortless acceleration of a powerful EV has its own appeal, and Autopilot helps a lot in heavy traffic. Also the weight distribution: my Model 3 weighs as much as my Challenger did (about 4000 lbs) but the V8 feels like a boat anchor compared to the floor mounted battery on a Tesla.

The complete opposite of a Tesla is a Miata, which is fun for a different reason. It's fun because it's NOT effortless, because you have to work hard to wring anything out of it, and the limits are so low that a 25mph zone can be fun.

For what it's worth, I agree that you should look for a 2018 AWD Model 3 in terms of value for money.

 

[Mrbrock]

How are you planning to charge your Tesla? Do you have L2 access at home or will you be supercharging? You want to buy Tesla to be fast and save fuel. If you drive like you suggest, you won’t be seeing anywhere close to the expected range. You get that by easing into the gas and staying below 70mph on the freeway. If you floor it from stop every time and do 80+ you are likely to get closer to half of the expected range. On a 2018 M3 LR AWD with boost the range was +/-300 miles new. Now it’s probably closer to 270. I’d reckon you’ll get less than 200 with hard driving habits. You have a 78 (well use 80 for math) kWh battery. Supercharging is going to be around $25 per 200 miles. For your example of 15mpg currently, you are using 13 gallons for 200 miles. Calculate using your current gas price and see what your savings actually are. It might not be as big as you think. However, if you have free charging at work then the math might make more sense.

 

[Peteski]

Not quite sure why you think removing heavy 20” wheels, heavy brakes and a spoiler from a P+ would make the P- accelerate like an AWD+...seems completely unjustifiable to me. Still, as @Phlier wrote, I, too, will choose to leave it at that. Glad you’re content with the AWD+, and even more pleased that @Phlier and I have our Stealths.

Stay safe.

I have no idea where I suggested doing anything like that?

Just to be clear in case it wasn’t obvious before, I think the stealth P was the best option when you could buy it new. But I wouldn’t pay a large premium for a used one today over a LR AWD since boost became a simple software upgrade. You can disagree if you like, but IMHO the stealth is now over-priced on the used market. I’m sure the OP can do the maths on that one for himself.

FWIW I don’t have an AWD+ either. Just a regular AWD. It’s plenty quick enough for me as a daily driver. If I wanted more performance it would be more in the mid-range 40-80 mph and I don’t believe the Performance variants are any quicker than a regular AWD in that range.

 

[arghx7]

Here's a chart that's been floating around Reddit (at least some data taken by user "Wugz" who has recorded a lot of CAN bust data). You want to look at the data for after the power bumps, as the power bumps were an over the air update that applies to even used cars. You can see the AWD+ has 80 less peak horsepower than the Performance (not sure if it was Stealth or not, probably only makes a small difference). It picks up about 50 horsepower compared to a standard AWD, and retains full warranty. See below for power and torque curve comparison.

I always find it silly the way people throw around 0-60 times, because it doesn't really capture the difference, it just makes good marketing.

I can tell you right now there's a noticeable but not drastic bump between an AWD+ and a LR AWD non boosted. The difference between AWD (non boosted) and Performance is significant under about 60-70 mph (100-120ish kph) as you can see in the chart and you can really feel it. The question is whether that's worth the money. IMO, AWD+ and P3D Stealth -- it's hard to justify the cost difference in the used market. You can buy any old AWD, and when you get bored with the power, buy the boost. Now you've got a daily driven high 11 second car that gets about 100 MPGe, handles pretty good for a 4 door, and can fit 4 adults or take a bunch of luggage to the airport when you put the rear seats down and fill all the various compartments. An older 2018 used 3 LR AWD is not as practical as a brand new Model Y LR AWD but it can be significantly cheaper if you get private sale, it's faster, and it handles better. Practicality doesn't seem to be a big concern here but it's a nice benefit of a 4 door.

The absolute largest performance gap between trim levels is probably between a SR+ and an AWD. I mean you're talking 10mph in the 1/4 mile trap speeds. It's night and day and if you test drive them back to back you can really feel it.

 

[Peteski]

M3 Stealth vs AWD boost. This is what it actually looks like back to back. Not a huge difference, especially when rolling. Stealth is ultimately quicker as you would expect, but it’s not a big deal considering the used cost premium

 

[Phlier]

Crystal Ball time:

For quite a while, guys speculated that there would be some option to pay for a power unlock for the LR AWD. It finally happened.

Now there is some speculation that after the Plaid power train becomes available for the Model S and Model X, that there might also become available a power unlock for the Performance (and Stealth) Model 3.

IMO, they're waiting to release this option until after the Plaid powertrain Model S and Model X are released, as you can't have the pony outrun the horse.

This is all pure speculation, for sure. But stranger things have happened...

For those that didn't know... There is a rear motor difference between (most) LR AWD and stealth/full Performance. The majority of the LR AWD's have the "990" rear motor, while the stealth/performance have the "980." There were some 2018 and a few 2019 LR AWD's that had the 980 as well, but FAIK, all LR AWD's produced since around February of 2019 now have the 990 (or possibly a newer revision?) in them.

This also assumes (and we all know what happens when we "assume") that the battery pack still has enough overhead left in it to support sucking power out of it at an even higher rate. We might very well be battery limited at this point, with no room left for additional power boosts. We might even be limited by the size of the power cables. Or maybe the drivetrain just doesn't have any more to give.

Time will tell...

 

[fuddy]

Where are you guys finding P3's for 53.5k? Tesla has them on their site for 54990.

 

[MoparGuy]

Where are you guys finding P3's for 53.5k? Tesla has them on their site for 54990.

We are in California so we have a $1500 CA clean air incentive.

 

[MoparGuy]

My P85D was a 2014, one of the first ones. The Ludicrous option was really a transformational one. I often wish I had kept mine, but a P3D is nearly as quick and has much better handling. I actually changed because I have a small car preference and love high performance. The S was too big for my taste. I really would prefer smaller than the Model 3 as long as I had the performance. With a Grand Sport the OP seems not to like large dimensions.

I don't mind, it's a fast car, I like to try different cars all the time, I have Bronco reservation, the Tesla possibly would be my bridge until I get my order, I have my eyes on the new Wrangler 4xe electric too, I buy what I like lol.
The Ludicrous is faster but the M3 P is newer and still have warranty.

AI think there will continue to be price volatility in the EV market going forward due to more and more competition entering the space, production/technology advances and efficiencies, potential changes in tax credits, etc.

I don't think something like M3 P would go below $55K but you never know what those Chinese competitors are hiding.

@MoparGuy , I think you're doing a disservice with expectations of a Corvette for a Model 3 or even Model S. 4 door cars are never going to have the characteristics of a 2 seat coupe. You should compare the Model 3 to a new 3 series BMW or something.

I understand what you're saying about the lack of engagement in an EV but... that's kind of the point. The effortless acceleration of a powerful EV has its own appeal.
The complete opposite of a Tesla is a Miata, which is fun for a different reason.

For what it's worth, I agree that you should look for a 2018 AWD Model 3 in terms of value for money.

I love jumping as long it's a good deal I jump on it, I am still used to American Muscle cars where you have to work for those 0-60 times, would be nice to try the M3, sure I have my eyes now on 2018 M3P, it took the depreciation already and in case I wanted to sell soon I won't be losing much.
I love Miatas by the way, I love the NC, I am looking for one right now.

How are you planning to charge your Tesla?

No solar, No free charge at work, maybe free slow charging, I'll charge home, my current cost is 20 cents per kWh, I do 1000 miles per month at least, If full charge give me 200 miles that's $75 per month, still not bad.

I have no idea where I suggested doing anything like that?

Just to be clear in case it wasn’t obvious before, I think the stealth P was the best option when you could buy it new. But I wouldn’t pay a large premium for a used one today over a LR AWD since boost became a simple software upgrade. You can disagree if you like, but IMHO the stealth is now over-priced on the used market. I’m sure the OP can do the maths on that one for himself.

I agree on that, they are being sold high right now, financially makes no sense spending $50K on a stripped P when you can get it loaded brand new for $3.5K more.

 

[MoparGuy]

The Corvette is sold
I am driving my Mom's Corolla at the moment =)).

That Vette sold in 4 days at almost my asking price!!