Help! Where are the savings?

[Larry93428]

In some of the above posts mention is made of our soldier's lives.
I had never thought of that, but it is true isn't it.
It brings tears to my eyes.
Tesla is great for so very many reasons.
(I wouldn't get the Ford.)

 

[Alexander]

If you don't drive a lot, you'll have to compare this car to a BMW M5 or something else that's in the same category to see the savings. Comparing a Model S to a non-luxury hybrid wont pencil out (unless you drive a lot).

I did a ridiculous amount of math before buying my MS. I actually created a 4 page spreadsheet calculating everything from long term maintenance, to the cost of all the professional details I would have to get. I had a Honda Accord at the time, and after running the numbers I found that a Toyota Prius was actually the most economical from a cost savings point of view.

The only problem is that I didn’t want a Prius, or another hybrid for that matter.

What I wanted was a luxury car that was also VERY economical, and that’s what the Model S is. Hands down, the MS is the most economical luxury car on the market. And just like any luxury car you’re going to pay a premium for it. A premium that makes it unappealing compared to anything non-luxury.

For me it penciled out because I drive almost a thousand miles a week. When I had my Accord I was spending $746 a month for gas on average. Now I’m spending $160 a month driving the exact same distances. Although that’s a huge savings, it’s still a much more expensive car. As a result I’m only breaking even. Which is fine with me! I’m getting a lot more car for the same amount of money, and that’s how I think YOU should look at it.

If you're only going to break even on the deal (like me), then you have to look for value elsewhere. For me, I found value in the following:

• Never having to stop at a gas station again
• Low or no maintenance (no more oil changes, or replacing transmissions, sparkplugs, timing belts, etc)
• Highest crash safety of any car ever
• Cheaper insurance with more coverage (I don’t know why, but most insurance companies will cover a Model S for up to a million/million in coverage for less then what you normally pay for $25k/$25k. Probably has something to do with the safety ratting. But for me, I’m now paying less for insurance then I was paying for my Accord and I have A LOT more coverage. I’m with USAA)
• A lot more cargo space (may not apply to you in your Fusion)
• Unbelievably fun acceleration (it’s like roller coaster, only you’re in control)
• Starting every day with a full tank (sounds stupid, but it nice having that consistency)
• No noise or vibration (it’s almost Zen like, especially if you’re stuck in traffic)
• The coolest infotainment system ever
• Awesome handling (wish the car was a little lighter, but it’s a Ferrari compared to my Accord)
• Fanatical customer service (I called Tesla at 2:00AM on a Sunday, and someone picked up and answered my dump question right away. Now that’s service!)

There’s more, but those were the big ones for me. So although I’m not really saving anything, I’m getting a lot more value compared to my Accord.

In short, if you’re going to compare a Model S to a non-luxury hybrid, you have to keep the following mind: While you won’t realize huge savings (or any savings at all), you’re getting a MUCH MUCH better car, with a MUCH MUCH better car company backing it. Even if you’re going to spend an additional $100-$200 a month, it’s more than worth the extra molla.

I hope you get it! Now that I have mine I can’t imagine driving anything else. It’s the only luxury car I’ve owned where I don’t feel like I’m throwing money away in something I really don’t need. Because I’m not!

Sorry for the long reply… I was in your shoes 2 years ago and just thought it would be unfair not to share my experience in the matter


Linkster: lol

 

[Trnsl8r]

Long story short, buying an MS is not going to be a rational financial decision. I gave up that hunt a long time ago. You'll have to wait for GenIII for that.

 

[DewyCheatem&Howe]

Thread Poster Response...

I am the original poster. I’m pleased to read all the carefully considerate reviews. (Those who were cute, please step to the rear; you aren’t helping.) I wasn’t going to reply but now I think it’s worthwhile developing this thread. Here’s more information:

The purpose of cars is to get from Point A to Point B. Some of us can afford luxury. My resources are limited. We own a Ford Fusion Hybrid (EV+ICE) getting 38 mpg and drive it 7,000 miles(+or-)/yr. Thus our gas costs $736/yr.

Since our Ford is small and we have two 85 pound dogs, we use a Dodge Ram Laramie 1500 for hauling. It doesn’t matter in this comparison. We will keep the Ford, possibly trade the truck for a Tesla, and is worth $22,000. However, since we are talking “dogs,” it’s unlikely we would let them ride in a Tesla. This ruins our plan, so we probably won’t do anything at this moment. However, it’s still interesting to consider other, excellent discussion points:

Driving a Tesla is not a pollution-free alternative. Utilities mostly burn fossil fuels to generate electricity to charge these batteries. An alternative is to install solar panels to generate my own energy. But CA law prohibits solar contractors from installing more panels than a homeowner PRESENTLY uses. If I plan to buy a Tesla, I cannot install more panels anticipating greater energy needs. It is a Catch-22 situation without a solution. I cannot spare the environment if I buy a Tesla.

According to some posters’ calculations, I will not save money on fuel. The Tesla website calculates I may save $100 a year driving 40 miles per day. Thanks to those posters who confirm my estimate.

I hold a very strong opinion that I will not buy foreign cars. (That is what attracts me to Tesla.) I do not cater to the idea that such-and-such is okay because it is assembled in the United States because the bottom line (profits) reverts to the country where the company is own (Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.) I want those profits to stay in the US. Period. End of discussion.

I have bought cars since 1963 and always pay cash. I owned two Mercedes and a Porsche. They were the worst valued, most expensive cars I’ve purchased, and I will not do that again. I am well beyond driving cars to impress other drivers I do not know, will never see again and pretend I am wealthy. It makes zero sense and is a no-sum game. Those who own BMWs, MB and other semi-exotic species may look down your noses at us until you visit your dealerships to pay repair and maintenance bills. If I want to see expensive cars, I visit my friend who owns 80 vehicles (including a new gull wing-door MB with a $10,000 paint job), which he keeps in a hanger parked next to his 8-passenger private jet.

Since many other Forum ideas are opinions, we are left to decide on the basis of personal bias. I very much appreciate items presented by RandyS, Zythryn, ItsNotAboutTheMoney, bsbomber, Ssssly, Pilot_51, jerry33, efusco, Larry93535, and special thanks to Alexander for his considerate suggestions. There are very strong points about safety, total cost, value, pleasure and enjoyment. We hope to buy a Tesla in the future and thank you for all your valuable ideas.

 

[Al Sherman]

Driving a Tesla is not a pollution-free alternative. Utilities mostly burn fossil fuels to generate electricity to charge these batteries.

True and I hope you get your Tesla someday. If you're going down the "long tailpipe" road don't believe it. It simply isn't a valid, or truthful argument against EV's. Frankly, proving it false is getting tiresome.

 

[ACDriveMotor]

I worked in the electric power gen industry for a decade.

Yes Utilities burn fossil fuels to generate electricity. However they have vastly more regulation and advanced emissions control systems than any ICE on the road. And they operate at a very high baseline efficiency. Burning gasoline in your car, even your hybrid, is done at a fraction of the efficiency of a Utility and will produce more COx/NOx/SOx and particulate emissions than a NG or diesel power plant per KW of energy produced/consumed. Only if your state uses coal predominately for power gen (ie. not CA) would this be a truly serious argument.

 

[richkae]

The purpose of cars is to get from Point A to Point B. Some of us can afford luxury. My resources are limited. We own a Ford Fusion Hybrid (EV+ICE) getting 38 mpg and drive it 7,000 miles(+or-)/yr. Thus our gas costs $736/yr.

There is a tradeoff between paying more up front for efficiency to lower the long term operating cost. It just won't save money for someone who drives very few miles. You already have an efficient vehicle and drive very few miles.

Driving a Tesla is not a pollution-free alternative. Utilities mostly burn fossil fuels to generate electricity to charge these batteries. An alternative is to install solar panels to generate my own energy.

An EV is not pollution-free. But when compared to even the most efficient ICE car, they generate less pollution. As a bonus, an EV bought today will generate less pollution in 10 years, while an ICE while generate the same or worse. Electricity generation is getting cleaner over time ( less coal, more NG and renewables ) and gasoline is getting dirtier ( more tar sand, shale oil, heavy oil and deep drilling ).

 

[ThosEM]

To answer specifically your original question:

Fusion:
$700/year divide by $4/gal times 40 mi/gal is about 7000 miles per year

Tesla:
$2/day divide by $0.11/kWh times 3 mi/kWh times 365 days is 20,000 miles per year

So you can drive almost three times farther on your $700 in a Tesla or other EV than you can in your Fusion, for typical electricity costs and energy consumption.
I have no idea why the Tesla site suggested you would spend $2 per day unless you input incorrect data about your expected driving.

My BMW gets 25 mi/gal, so my daily cost of commuting 25 miles each way is 2 gallons of gas, or $8.
My Tesla gets at least 2.5 mi/kWh even in cold of winter, so my daily cost of commuting 25 miles each way is 10 kWh, which at $0.14/kWh costs me $2.40

These results are pretty consistent, and you'd need a car with 90 MPG to have the same energy cost as a Tesla, at typical electricity prices.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Dogs! the S is perfect for dogs. it is just a car
My dogs got carsick on occasion in the back of my Rav4 but they never get sick in the back of the S!

silent,quick, pleasure to drive
other cars smell terrible and are very noisy

definitely not cheaper than a Fusion hybrid but the joy makes up for it all.

 

[Alexander]

True and I hope you get your Tesla someday. If you're going down the "long tailpipe" road don't believe it. It simply isn't a valid, or truthful argument against EV's. Frankly, proving it false is getting tiresome.

This is one of the best videos I've seen debunking the "Well-to-Wheels" argument and many others. Its long, but its worth watching. If you just want to watch the part about the long tailpipe, skip to 6:01

 

[David_Cary]

What some posters forget is OP is in CA. 11 cents a KWH just doesn't happen there.

OP - solar can be done to make it net zero. You just have to find efficiency gains to offset the car after the install. The law is another really stupid CA thing (but I digress).

Of course most electricity is generated using fossil fuels. And of course it is not pollution free. Some of these arguments against EVs are rather ignorant but what you stated was very true. Not sure why what you said created angst. But most analysis put EVs well ahead of any ICE/hybrid.

OP - come to NC and pay 5 cents to charge off peak. Buy a Leaf with better efficiency. I drive about 10000 miles a year for $120. Or use the RE savings alone which will buy 2 teslas all powered entirely (along with your house) by solar.

Imagine how many EVs CA would have if they fixed the electricity rate problem which makes EVs not save money over gasoline. They would rather give rebates and HOV access (which creates all sorts of BS incentives).

 

[bonaire]

The OP doesn't drive that far. Best solution for them is an off lease Ford Fusion Energi PiHV coming off lease in 2017. USA made, US company and It is a plug in and offers them the intial 20 miles in the morning gas free. If their electric rate is .16 or more cents per kWh, then the price per electric mile is about half of gas in a 40 mpg car.

CA has special EV tiered and dual-meter rate solutions for EV owners.

 

[David_Cary]

CA has not one electric company so EV rates are not always available. I've heard costs of $2500 for the second meter which can take a decade to payback.

Other EV rates require very high peak rates during the day which may or may not pan out - less likely to with minimal driving or small battery. There are peak rates of 53 cents and off peak of $.14 - so while you might save money charging your car, you might pay more during the day and break even. That is the SG&E TOU-EV rate. But there are rates as high as 74 cents peak.

I'd never pretend to understand what an EV would do to anyone's CA electric bill. Not saving money compared to a 40 mpg car is really easy to understand.

 

[capt601]

The OP doesn't drive that far. Best solution for them is an off lease Ford Fusion Energi PiHV coming off lease in 2017. USA made, US company and It is a plug in and offers them the intial 20 miles in the morning gas free. If their electric rate is .16 or more cents per kWh, then the price per electric mile is about half of gas in a 40 mpg car.

CA has special EV tiered and dual-meter rate solutions for EV owners.

Exactly. .11 cents a kWh for us from midnight to 6 am in SoCal.

 

[Merrill]

Everyone has a different set of circumstances and you have to choose what works for you, there is no fit for all. My experience is in Northern California with PG&E, we do have a 4.5kW solar system but it does not take care of all of our electricity usage. We are 100 % electric and have no other choice. We did install a second meter for the Tesla and the cost was $1100 including permits, we are charging from midnight to 7am at 4.7 cents per kW. For 5 months of the year we are negative because we have an old rate schedule on the net metering of e7 TOU and are on e9b for the car. We have worked hard to go green with the lighting, pool and landscaping and have over the years replaced all the mechanicals with new efficient models. Low flow toilets water heater on a timer and what really works for us is on the e7 program we use very little energy between 12 and 6 pm, but generate most of our solar during that time so the power company is paying us the super high rate during that time, so in the summer we are very negative on the peak TOU. Our cost to go 10000 mile and one year for the Tesla was $118, this is compared to our Mercedes SUV of $2200 (computed at 18mpg and $4 per gallon which is conservative). So if you look at 10 years you have $1180 vs $22,000.

 

[gaswalla]

You should be comparing to a LEAF

 

[SmartElectric]

I switched from a Ford to my 2014 Smart Electric Drive in November 2013.
I used to spend $120ish per month on gas, and $30 more per month on insurance (the Smart is insanely cheap to insure for me).

If the OP is indeed only spending $60 per month on gas, and would potentially save $30 on insurance like me, that is $90 per month.
The lease cost of a Smart ED is $140/month (includes the $80 battery rental as part of that $140).
The cost of electricity for the same distance would be on the order of $10/mo.

So, driving fully electric is still more expensive than their gas car.

However, if they sold their hybrid car, they would pocket $22Kish, in which case they could buy the Smart ED outright and have savings of $80 per month over their existing car.

Given that they do not intend to drive their dogs around in a car, no matter what the car (they keep a truck for that), the Smart ED is suitable for two people.

 

[bonnie]

But CA law prohibits solar contractors from installing more panels than a homeowner PRESENTLY uses. If I plan to buy a Tesla, I cannot install more panels anticipating greater energy needs. It is a Catch-22 situation without a solution. I cannot spare the environment if I buy a Tesla.

Overthinking here. Don't make this harder than it has to be. Install the solar panels AFTER you buy an electric car and you can show your NEW 'present' usage. That's what I did. It's not that big of a deal to wait a couple of months. PG&E was perfectly happy with that explanation.

 

[Alexander]

What some posters forget is OP is in CA. 11 cents a KWH just doesn't happen there..

That's not true. I'm with Southern California Edison and get .11 cents per kWh every day except for between Noon and 9PM. I had to buy a second meter but Edison did all the work.

 

[Cobra Kai]

Until we get our hands on a model III car, it's hard to find appreciable savings in the S or the upcoming X. Most early adopters of Tesla are buying it for the way it looks, the way it drives, the tech, and that it doesn't leave an carbon footprint compared to ICE vehicles. Savings would be icing on the cake, but tough to do with a car over 70k (average Model S purchases come out to close to 100k optioned out)


I'm going well out of my comfort zone to get the Model X. The savings will be there in other facets in a sense. Like yearly vehicle registration and HOV lane access and convenience of never going to a gas station. But by no means will they offset what you pay for the S or X. And when we get the model III, we will never have to get gas again. And that is what is important to me. And once my family has the X and the III, I would be hard-pressed to ever go back to a gas powered car in the future.


ps: glad I live in AZ where my off-peak electric rate is .03 per kW.... Didn't realize CA was so high, but I'm not surprised.