Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
  • The final cut of TMC Podcast #34 is available now with topics timestamped. We covered Tesla's rollercoaster prices, Toyota pushing junk science, Mike's new Model 3, Optimizing track mode for snow driving, FSD V11 apparently coming by the end of this week, and more. You can watch and check out the chat replay on YouTube.

Help with Evaluating Trend toward true up after 6 months

Apologies for my dense-ness.

When it comes to PG&E, I’ve learned over the years that if I interpret a bill in a way that makes me smile, I’m reading it wrong and what I think I might be getting back, I end up owing x 3. Insurance is the same way.

I’ve gone over the true-up threads and examples, but in that same suspicious way, if the numbers don’t exactly match what mine are, I conclude that in the way mine differ is some secret combo that drains my wallet while looking like it doesn’t.

Here are photos of page 1 and 2 of my PG&E cumulative statement. The other 13 pages I’m sure are only provided to confuse and frustrate. Am I in the clear? Doing ok? in trouble?

I read it as (to date) I have used 253 kwh from PG&E (page 2), and in that same time (to date) I have $1,027.54 (page 1) in my NEM account to offset the charge for that 253 kwh used, and any surplus in that NEM account at my true-up will NOT rollover and just disappear next year straight into PG&E’s wallet.

I look at the numbers and want to say, “Yay”, but at the same time, am worried that will be the kiss of death if I do; and there will be this “oh wait, you forgot about THIS charge; You owe PGE $1,000 😖)

Mom always said if it’s to good to be true, it ain’t. Am I worrying for nothing?

Thanks in advance, and again, apologies for my being stupid… 🙁
 

Attachments

  • 3C82AA83-9EA5-471B-A2DD-887BC94FB8C7.jpeg
    3C82AA83-9EA5-471B-A2DD-887BC94FB8C7.jpeg
    763.6 KB · Views: 89
  • F2F4DAE0-5A67-47F4-80D0-3B46F5410B8B.jpeg
    F2F4DAE0-5A67-47F4-80D0-3B46F5410B8B.jpeg
    752.4 KB · Views: 53

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
2,048
802
95762
Apologies for my dense-ness.

When it comes to PG&E, I’ve learned over the years that if I interpret a bill in a way that makes me smile, I’m reading it wrong and what I think I might be getting back, I end up owing x 3. Insurance is the same way.

I’ve gone over the true-up threads and examples, but in that same suspicious way, if the numbers don’t exactly match what mine are, I conclude that in the way mine differ is some secret combo that drains my wallet while looking like it doesn’t.

Here are photos of page 1 and 2 of my PG&E cumulative statement. The other 13 pages I’m sure are only provided to confuse and frustrate. Am I in the clear? Doing ok? in trouble?

I read it as (to date) I have used 253 kwh from PG&E (page 2), and in that same time (to date) I have $1,027.54 (page 1) in my NEM account to offset the charge for that 253 kwh used, and any surplus in that NEM account at my true-up will NOT rollover and just disappear next year straight into PG&E’s wallet.

I look at the numbers and want to say, “Yay”, but at the same time, am worried that will be the kiss of death if I do; and there will be this “oh wait, you forgot about THIS charge; You owe PGE $1,000 😖)

Mom always said if it’s to good to be true, it ain’t. Am I worrying for nothing?

Thanks in advance, and again, apologies for my being stupid… 🙁
I would agree with your assessment. Looks like you are 6 months into your True-up? At the end of the summer I'm close to negative $1K, but then erase from that credit over the winter months as there is much less sun. Do you have electric or gas heat?
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
4,154
1,074
auburn, ca
Apologies for my dense-ness.

When it comes to PG&E, I’ve learned over the years that if I interpret a bill in a way that makes me smile, I’m reading it wrong and what I think I might be getting back, I end up owing x 3. Insurance is the same way.

I’ve gone over the true-up threads and examples, but in that same suspicious way, if the numbers don’t exactly match what mine are, I conclude that in the way mine differ is some secret combo that drains my wallet while looking like it doesn’t.

Here are photos of page 1 and 2 of my PG&E cumulative statement. The other 13 pages I’m sure are only provided to confuse and frustrate. Am I in the clear? Doing ok? in trouble?

I read it as (to date) I have used 253 kwh from PG&E (page 2), and in that same time (to date) I have $1,027.54 (page 1) in my NEM account to offset the charge for that 253 kwh used, and any surplus in that NEM account at my true-up will NOT rollover and just disappear next year straight into PG&E’s wallet.

I look at the numbers and want to say, “Yay”, but at the same time, am worried that will be the kiss of death if I do; and there will be this “oh wait, you forgot about THIS charge; You owe PGE $1,000 😖)

Mom always said if it’s to good to be true, it ain’t. Am I worrying for nothing?

Thanks in advance, and again, apologies for my being stupid… 🙁
When I got my black and white bill for true up from PGE, it says true up at the top, it is the only one with this.
Now, if when makes changes, and has true up less than 12 months, like I have had multiple times, then it can be less than 12 months.
I have had 3 and will be getting a 4th.
 
Is this your actual annual bill for true up? On my SCE bill it says you are "in month X of 12". I dont see that on your bill. Unless you are in month 12 of 12 already?
That is the PG&E ESS Black bill which is very cryptic. The second image has the monthly summaries and it shows that the OP is six months in.

@dho112 You are grid imports have been very minimal each month, so your NBCs are much lower than your MDCs. This will change over the winter months with less daylight, but you should owe nothing for your true-ups and should be getting a payout from your CCA for your net exports. You will have two true-ups one for PG&E and one for the CCA, but the good news for you it looks like your PG&E is in April which should be the same as your CCA.

Your profile indicates that you are with the Pioneer Community Energy CCA which pays out the net exported kWh at the PG&E's Net Surplus Compensation rate + $0.005/kWh. This should be around $0.051 + $0.005 or $0.056/kWh for May-2022 through April 2023.
 
Last edited:

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Moderator
Nov 28, 2018
17,606
23,687
Riverside Co. CA
That is the PG&E ESS Black bill which is very cryptic. The second image has the monthly summaries and it shows that the OP is six months in.

I had to look at it again, and then re read what you said, to understand what you were actually saying here. I suspected this wasnt a true up bill but was not sure.
 
I had to look at it again, and then re read what you said, to understand what you were actually saying here. I suspected this wasnt a true up bill but was not sure.
Not a true up bill.

The bottom of the table in the first image says "CUMULATIVE ENERGY CHARGES FOR YOUR ELECTRICITY USAGE WILL BE DUE AT THE END OF YOUR ANNUAL TRUE-UP PERIOD". This wording is not present in the annual true-up table.
 
Last edited:
Apologies for my dense-ness.

When it comes to PG&E, I’ve learned over the years that if I interpret a bill in a way that makes me smile, I’m reading it wrong and what I think I might be getting back, I end up owing x 3. Insurance is the same way.

I’ve gone over the true-up threads and examples, but in that same suspicious way, if the numbers don’t exactly match what mine are, I conclude that in the way mine differ is some secret combo that drains my wallet while looking like it doesn’t.

Here are photos of page 1 and 2 of my PG&E cumulative statement. The other 13 pages I’m sure are only provided to confuse and frustrate. Am I in the clear? Doing ok? in trouble?

I read it as (to date) I have used 253 kwh from PG&E (page 2), and in that same time (to date) I have $1,027.54 (page 1) in my NEM account to offset the charge for that 253 kwh used, and any surplus in that NEM account at my true-up will NOT rollover and just disappear next year straight into PG&E’s wallet.

I look at the numbers and want to say, “Yay”, but at the same time, am worried that will be the kiss of death if I do; and there will be this “oh wait, you forgot about THIS charge; You owe PGE $1,000 😖)

Mom always said if it’s to good to be true, it ain’t. Am I worrying for nothing?

Thanks in advance, and again, apologies for my being stupid… 🙁
Apologies for my dense-ness.

When it comes to PG&E, I’ve learned over the years that if I interpret a bill in a way that makes me smile, I’m reading it wrong and what I think I might be getting back, I end up owing x 3. Insurance is the same way.

I’ve gone over the true-up threads and examples, but in that same suspicious way, if the numbers don’t exactly match what mine are, I conclude that in the way mine differ is some secret combo that drains my wallet while looking like it doesn’t.

Here are photos of page 1 and 2 of my PG&E cumulative statement. The other 13 pages I’m sure are only provided to confuse and frustrate. Am I in the clear? Doing ok? in trouble?

I read it as (to date) I have used 253 kwh from PG&E (page 2), and in that same time (to date) I have $1,027.54 (page 1) in my NEM account to offset the charge for that 253 kwh used, and any surplus in that NEM account at my true-up will NOT rollover and just disappear next year straight into PG&E’s wallet.

I look at the numbers and want to say, “Yay”, but at the same time, am worried that will be the kiss of death if I do; and there will be this “oh wait, you forgot about THIS charge; You owe PGE $1,000 😖)

Mom always said if it’s to good to be true, it ain’t. Am I worrying for nothing?

Thanks in advance, and again, apologies for my being stupid… 🙁
Is this your actual annual bill for true up? On my SCE bill it says you are "in month X of 12". I dont see that on your bill. Unless you are in month 12 of 12 already?
Massive apologies!

This is actually not my true up bill, but the monthly detail PG&E bill (Thank you moderator for making the thread title more accurate)

I was just needing help to let me know, given the six months I’ve had my solar system operating, if I was in a good place; i.e. getting money or credits instead of having a balance to pay at my actual true up date (April next year)

Thanks everyone for your patience! 👍🏼
 
we figured it out
where in CA are you and do you have electric or gas heat? That will determine how close to zero true up you are
I’m in the San Francisco Eastbay, Zone 4 territory X, and I have gas (heating). I’m still billed for natural gas every month separate from electricity. That part of my bill for gas is about 30-35 a month. I hope to be going to a heat-pump hvac system soon.

Here is the full table of the page that shows how much I took from the grid.
 

Attachments

  • C25E6EC5-777C-4810-8F38-7EDDD37CDAF4.jpeg
    C25E6EC5-777C-4810-8F38-7EDDD37CDAF4.jpeg
    303 KB · Views: 24
I'm suspecting your solar is oversized. You may be way negative at true up which is wasting money
In my current situation I was planning on it being far oversized since I’m going to switch out my natural gas heater and ac for a heat pump system, and replace the gas range/oven for an induction unit, and I’ve also been going VERY light on my Tesla car charging until I had at least one true up cycle to see how good/bad my overall situation is. I was trying to set the size of my solar battery system (9.6Kw) based on those future improvements. The rub (good news) is that I’m generating far more than the estimates from Tesla said I would. Which seems to give me a buffer.

I’m glad i’m getting confirmation from the forum so far that it seems I’m planted well in the credit instead of the debit zone of my overall solar situation.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ampster
That is the PG&E ESS Black bill which is very cryptic. The second image has the monthly summaries and it shows that the OP is six months in.

@dho112 You are grid imports have been very minimal each month, so your NBCs are much lower than your MDCs. This will change over the winter months with less daylight, but you should owe nothing for your true-ups and should be getting a payout from your CCA for your net exports. You will have two true-ups one for PG&E and one for the CCA, but the good news for you it looks like your PG&E is in April which should be the same as your CCA.

Your profile indicates that you are with the Pioneer Community Energy CCA which pays out the net exported kWh at the PG&E's Net Surplus Compensation rate + $0.005/kWh. This should be around $0.051 + $0.005 or $0.056/kWh for May-2022 through April 2023.
Wait, are you saying that potentially (just for the 6 months so far) I could be getting a check equal to my “kwh eligible for credit” of 4900 kwh x .056? potentially $274?! And this is a separate thing from my NEM credit used to offset my kwh imports from pge?

I’m trying not to get too optomistic 🙂
 
Wait, are you saying that potentially (just for the 6 months so far) I could be getting a check equal to my “kwh eligible for credit” of 4900 kwh x .056? potentially $274?! And this is a separate thing from my NEM credit used to offset my kwh imports from pge?

I’m trying not to get too optomistic 🙂
You get paid for net exports, not the total exports. You need to subtract your imports from the exports which is the Billed Usage number or 4,649 kWh * ~$0.056 kWh = $260.34 at this point.

At your annual true-up your negative NEM balance will be reset to $0 and you would get a check from PCE for your net exported kWh if it remains above $25.00.

If you're paying to charge your Tesla away from home then stop and charge at home as $0.056/kWh is cheaper then any charger that isn't free.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dho112
You get paid for net exports, not the total exports. You need to subtract your imports from the exports which is the Billed Usage number or 4,649 kWh * ~$0.056 kWh = $260.34 at this point.

At your annual true-up your negative NEM balance will be reset to $0 and you would get a check from PCE for your net exported kWh if it remains above $25.00.

If you're paying to charge your Tesla away from home then stop and charge at home as $0.056/kWh is cheaper then any charger that isn't free.
Thank you for the explanation! I’m breathing much easier now with the thinking that as long as I maintain my present trajectory, I’m not having to expect some giant doom and gloom PGE surprise at true-up!
 
Thank you for the explanation! I’m breathing much easier now with the thinking that as long as I maintain my present trajectory, I’m not having to expect some giant doom and gloom PGE surprise at true-up!
Just note the trajectory will change drastically over the winter months, due to the low winter sun. Without knowing more specifics on your system, I plugged a typical south-facing 9.6 kw array into PVwatts and got an estimate for a typical year of about 9600 kwh generated over the past six summer months, you net exported about half of that and self-consumed about 5000 kwh behind the meter (not visible to PG&E).

Over the next six months, your array might produce only about 6200 kwh, if you self-consume the same as before, you'll still be banking credits, but only 1200 kwh over the next six months, only 1/4 of what you banked in the first six months. However, it is likely your consumption will change somewhat in winter - more lighting, more runtime on the furnace blower, no A/C usage - only you know your household so could go up, or could go down (check your bills from the previous year). If you didn't have A/C usage in summer, then likely your consumption goes up in winter.

If your array is not south facing, your winter production will be dramatically far less too. In any case, winter months are the time to be ideally drawing down your banked credits. Having a large surplus at true-up is not great, it's basically wasted money as the true-up is meager. If you don't have free charging for your Tesla at work or elsewhere, you're certainly paying far more for the electricity than $0.056/kwh, so may want to start charging at home to draw down the balance...
 
  • Like
Reactions: dho112
Thank you for the explanation! I’m breathing much easier now with the thinking that as long as I maintain my present trajectory, I’m not having to expect some giant doom and gloom PGE surprise at true-up!
Entering the lower daily sunlight and cloudy days of December and January you will likely find yourself drawing more from the grid and maybe you have a bill or two with positive NEM charges, but then it will turn around again. I don't foresee you having anything other than owing $0 to PG&E at your annual true-up in April and getting a check from PCE for the net exported kWh 1-2 months later.

Note: All CCAs that I know of have an annual true-up in April which often different than the PG&E annual true-up that is based on the your PTO. In this case they are both the same which makes it easier to think about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dho112
I'm suspecting your solar is oversized. You may be way negative at true up which is wasting money

But the feels when you don't even have to pay gas for a few months!! I used my credits for the last few months and had to pay $0 like 3 bills now (there was some climate credit too).

I honestly feel everyone should just oversize their system since your energy use will probably only go up and you can "brag" you pay $0 for car gas with an EV/power/home gas for months on end.

Like I said before, after spending all the $$ on the solar/batteries, will a lot of the wealthy folks here (not me) actually miss the $$ vs. just not buying that Model X and getting the Model Y instead? (I guess different strokes for different folks there since some must have the Plaid, Lucid Sapphire, Hummer 1st edition, etc).
 
Just note the trajectory will change drastically over the winter months, due to the low winter sun. Without knowing more specifics on your system, I plugged a typical south-facing 9.6 kw array into PVwatts and got an estimate for a typical year of about 9600 kwh generated over the past six summer months, you net exported about half of that and self-consumed about 5000 kwh behind the meter (not visible to PG&E).

Over the next six months, your array might produce only about 6200 kwh, if you self-consume the same as before, you'll still be banking credits, but only 1200 kwh over the next six months, only 1/4 of what you banked in the first six months. However, it is likely your consumption will change somewhat in winter - more lighting, more runtime on the furnace blower, no A/C usage - only you know your household so could go up, or could go down (check your bills from the previous year). If you didn't have A/C usage in summer, then likely your consumption goes up in winter.

If your array is not south facing, your winter production will be dramatically far less too. In any case, winter months are the time to be ideally drawing down your banked credits. Having a large surplus at true-up is not great, it's basically wasted money as the true-up is meager. If you don't have free charging for your Tesla at work or elsewhere, you're certainly paying far more for the electricity than $0.056/kwh, so may want to start charging at home to draw down the balance...
I have a 9.6Kw system and my roof is almost perfectly south facing with a low pitch and no obstructions at all.

The tesla installation tech actually mentioned solar situation doesn’t get much better than mine even with an articulating mount. Right now, I’m at 13Mw from April to Now and it was only half of April actually, and we’re halfway thru Nov so about 7 months of operation total to get to 13Mw. Tesla’s estimate for my system was 13Mw, and the tech said it would definitely be more than that (as it’s proven to be)

We use a TON of AC in the summer. My wife doesn’t like heat and if it’s 100 degrees outside, she’ll want it less than 70 inside. on summer nights she wants it even cooler in the bedroom than 70. This winter (we have gas hearing) we rarely use the heater. Again she loves the cold (though I freeze to death!)

So I would say we use FAR more electricity in the summer, very little in the winter, and still I’m producing about 40-45Kwh a day in winter (according to my sun angle app the sun is just about at its lowest angle in the sky, so that’s going to get only better) In the summer and spring I’m generating close to 70Kwh a day.

I’m really hoping I’m banking a S^%load of credits right now for my first trueup because I want to go heatpump instead of gas and that will increase my heating cost in winter, as well as replacing my gas stove with induction and charging at home far more than I am right now 👍🏼
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top