Here's a tip for charging in parking garages

[darth_vad3r]

And I have said that in those kinds of places, it is stealing. And I would not do it without asking.

And I have said it's unknown whether it is stealing or not stealing until status of permission is ascertained. Anything else is speculation. If the parkade owner has granted permission to all to charge, then it's not stealing, even if you don't ask. You can't steal if you have permission.

Though when someone is sitting in a busy airport with employees and guards all around and not trying to hide, and where there's somebody plugged into every available outlet, it's a fair assumption that if nobody tries to stop them it's probably permitted.

LOL, so if nobody tries to stop you, and everyone is doing it, then it's probably permitted? This logic transfers great elsewhere in the law.

Trying to hide what you're doing kind of suggests that you know you shouldn't be doing it. Doing something out in the open doesn't necessarily mean it's okay, but when tons of people do it every day and nobody makes any effort to stop them even though the place is crawling with authorities who see the people doing it all day every day, then, again, it's reasonable to assume it's allowed.

Actually, I think it's unreasonable to assume anything. Either way.

I see nothing wrong with trying to hide my $500 piece of equipment (UMC) from prying eyes that could damage it.

You cannot steal if you have permission to take. If the status of permission is UNKNOWN, then the status of whether it is stealing is also UNKNOWN. Period. Anything else is an assumption.

You see someone prying into a window to unlock a vehicle, then you go back a minute later and the vehicle is gone. Was it stolen? Was it towed? Towing isn't (typically) stealing because presumably the tow truck has a legal right to tow the vehicle.

 

[darth_vad3r]

You all realize there is a magnitude of difference in the power used by even the most power hungry laptop and an EV on a 15 amp circuit?

I'm just saying, nobody cares about you working on your laptop and charging at the bar/restaurant because it's easy for everyone to see the cost is minuscule, and the patron will generally stay longer.

What might this cost them for an hour of charging? Let's ignore initial costs and possible demand surcharges.
iPhone <$0.01/hr
Laptop. $0.02/hr
L1 charge $0.20/hr
L2 charge $0.88/hr

So charging consumer electronic devices is super cheap. The outlets are in public locations and not secured against unauthorized access, therefore they're available to the public in those spaces, because there is an implicit agreement with the public. Charging a 150w laptop is completely different than charging a 1500w L1 EV.

At an airport they don’t want the patron to "generally stay longer" , costs are not an issue for the airport — they don’t want you to stay and charge so you buy more coffee. People are comparing to robbing a bank to illustrate that it’s the logic that people are taking issue with, not the cost. Besides thousands of people charging devices in an airport will out weigh a few L2 cars plugged into the parkade.

You only need 10 laptop chargers for 1 EV by your numbers. Say even 100 to be generous. There are probably more than 100:1 ratio of laptop chargers vs EV drivers at most airports. Why is charging the laptop without asking inside the airport “okay” but plugging the EV into an L1 plug in the airport parkade without asking “not okay”? They should be considered equally.

You know robbing a bank is wrong for $1, $1000, $1000,000.
Stealing power is wrong too. 1 Wh, 1 kWh, 10 kWh. Same crime. (ok, well crimes will actually change after a certain large dollar value is exceeded, but you know)

If plugging in with assumed permission is “fine” for some things but not for others then people need to rexemine their logic.

It's not okay to steal $10 from a bank because it was less than $10,000. Theft is theft. If you have permission to take something it's not theft. If you aren't sure if you have permission, then you aren't sure if you are stealing.

 

[derotam]

And I have said that in those kinds of places, it is stealing. And I would not do it without asking.

Though when someone is sitting in a busy airport with employees and guards all around and not trying to hide, and where there's somebody plugged into every available outlet, it's a fair assumption that if nobody tries to stop them it's probably permitted.

Trying to hide what you're doing kind of suggests that you know you shouldn't be doing it. Doing something out in the open doesn't necessarily mean it's okay, but when tons of people do it every day and nobody makes any effort to stop them even though the place is crawling with authorities who see the people doing it all day every day, then, again, it's reasonable to assume it's allowed.

Yes because when I see everyone going 15mph over the speed limit past a cop it must be ALLOWED right...until at the next cop down the road when you are in front of everyone doing that same 15 over and the 2nd cop pulls you over.

You can't say that just because no one of authority in the area that can see you stops you, that it is "allowed". Ignored, yes, but not allowed.

As far as the Airport discussion goes, I will maintain a technical standpoint... If there is an airport with regular sporadic outlets, AND those "power towers" for people to use...this does NOT mean that ALL outlets in the airport are fair game. Those power towers could be sponsored, or are being "provided" by some company that is paying the airport. In that case, technically, ONLY the power towers are expressly allowed to be used. Maybe the airport put the towers in hopes of stopping people from using the wall outlets.(passive aggressive).

Does the airport really care about the amount of power that people are using out of the sporadic outlets? Doesn't seem so right now, but that doesn't mean it is allowed.

While I sometimes maintain that it is better to ask forgiveness than permission, it isn't always the case, and it doesn't automatically make it ok.

 

[derotam]

At an airport they don’t want the patron to "generally stay longer" , costs are not an issue for the airport — they don’t want you to stay and charge so you buy more coffee. People are comparing to robbing a bank to illustrate that it’s the logic that people are taking issue with, not the cost. Besides thousands of people charging devices in an airport will out weigh a few L2 cars plugged into the parkade.

You only need 10 laptop chargers for 1 EV by your numbers. Say even 100 to be generous. There are probably more than 100:1 ratio of laptop chargers vs EV drivers at most airports. Why is charging the laptop without asking inside the airport “okay” but plugging the EV into an L1 plug in the airport parkade without asking “not okay”? They should be considered equally.

You know robbing a bank is wrong for $1, $1000, $1000,000.
Stealing power is wrong too. 1 Wh, 1 kWh, 10 kWh. Same crime. (ok, well crimes will actually change after a certain large dollar value is exceeded, but you know)

If plugging in with assumed permission is “fine” for some things but not for others then people need to rexemine their logic.

It's not okay to steal $10 from a bank because it was less than $10,000. Theft is theft. If you have permission to take something it's not theft. If you aren't sure if you have permission, then you aren't sure if you are stealing.

Why is charging the laptop without asking inside the airport “okay” but plugging the EV into an L1 plug in the airport parkade without asking “not okay”? They should be considered equally.

If plugging in with assumed permission is “fine” for some things but not for others then people need to rexemine their logic

I will disagree with you partly here on a technicality...it can be situation, scenario, location based...One can reasonably assume using airport power for your laptop is allowed based on the preponderance of outlets in locations that seem to be geared toward customers, as opposed to an airport where there are ONLY sporadically located building code required outlets. Same with a parking garage...if there is an outlet at EVERY parking space then it COULD be reasonable to assume they are for customer use.

 

[Saguarojoe]

I'm reminded of the news story I saw where a homeless man was charged with stealing after plugging his cellphone into a regular 5-15 outlet on the exterior wall of a downtown store. He probably took about $0.01 worth of electricity but, hey, he was homeless. In our mixed up society the police would probably feel obligated to give a Tesla owner a warning rather than charge them. The homeless man got no second chance.

 

[daniel]

@darth_vad3r
Clearly we disagree. Though I may not have expressed myself as well as I'd have liked, I think common sense applies in these kinds of situations. And I think that it's obvious when plugging in is clearly allowed or when it's obvious that one needs to ask first. One can invent hypotheticals where the rules break down, but most times I think it's clear.

Just to take one pair of examples: There are probably a thousand cars on the road, or more, for every cop. It's not possible for the cops to stop every driver going 5 mph over the limit. But the airport is crawling with security and employees. It would be trivially easy to enforce a no-plug-in rule. Common sense.

 

[derotam]

@darth_vad3r
Clearly we disagree. Though I may not have expressed myself as well as I'd have liked, I think common sense applies in these kinds of situations. And I think that it's obvious when plugging in is clearly allowed or when it's obvious that one needs to ask first. One can invent hypotheticals where the rules break down, but most times I think it's clear.

Just to take one pair of examples: There are probably a thousand cars on the road, or more, for every cop. It's not possible for the cops to stop every driver going 5 mph over the limit. But the airport is crawling with security and employees. It would be trivially easy to enforce a no-plug-in rule. Common sense.

So, again from a technical discussion standpoint...are you suggesting that there not being a rule one way or the other means that you can do whatever you want because there is no rule one way or another?

And, "crawling with security and employees" does not mean that those same individuals don't have higher priorities...just like the idea that cops aren't going to(because they don't have the resources) go and pull over EVERYONE who is speeding. This doesn't make the speeders less guilty.

 

[darth_vad3r]

@darth_vad3r
Clearly we disagree. Though I may not have expressed myself as well as I'd have liked, I think common sense applies in these kinds of situations. And I think that it's obvious when plugging in is clearly allowed or when it's obvious that one needs to ask first. One can invent hypotheticals where the rules break down, but most times I think it's clear.

Just to take one pair of examples: There are probably a thousand cars on the road, or more, for every cop. It's not possible for the cops to stop every driver going 5 mph over the limit. But the airport is crawling with security and employees. It would be trivially easy to enforce a no-plug-in rule. Common sense.

Common sense tells me that security at an airport has about a hundred higher priority things on their mind than enforcing a disallowed charging rule ... ya know, like SECURITY? Things that put the public in the airport at risk, or the passengers in a plane, like suspicious activity, bags being left unattended, etc, etc ... airport security type stuff.

Inferring anything about permission from lack of enforcement seems silly. Just as silly as your 5 mph speeding example meaning it’s permitted to exceed the speed limit (which you didn’t say, but for the airport you switch tacks )

 

[daniel]

So is your argument that it's okay to plug your car in for a charge at the garage without asking because people plug their computers in at the airport without asking?

I think the situations are very different, but I've never done either. (Except once in the VIP lounge where there was an outlet by every seat, and a person would have to have a screw loose to think those were not put there for customers to use. There was also free food and drinks, both alcoholic and non-alcoholic. And free wi-fi and signs with the password.)

 

[darth_vad3r]

So is your argument that it's okay to plug your car in for a charge at the garage without asking because people plug their computers in at the airport without asking?

No, not at all. My argument is that it's wrong to assume it's NOT okay and automatically judge the OP as a thief. He COULD be a thief if the parkade owner is NOT okay with it. He could also NOT be a thief if the parkade owner IS okay with it.

... and that people so quick to judge the EV scenario one way but look the other way in other equivalent* scenarios (charging in airports, restaurants) need to re-examine their logic

*Where "equivalent" means outlets not clearly marked for public consumption by a sign, or by virtue of their completely obvious placement within a desk or table or chair obviously meant for use. Those cases are equivalent to an outlet in a parking space painted with an EV charging logo

 

[WilliamG]

No, not at all. My argument is that it's wrong to assume it's NOT okay and automatically judge the OP as a thief. He COULD be a thief if the parkade owner is NOT okay with it. He could also NOT be a thief if the parkade owner IS okay with it.

... and that people so quick to judge the EV scenario one way but look the other way in other equivalent scenarios (charging in airports, restaurants) need to re-examine their logic

Uh huh...

Let me quote the OP:

So I tried to find a spot on an upper level, where fewer cars would be parked or driving by my car. Fewer eyes to see and fewer people to ask questions. Then once on an upper level, I tried to park off in the back. Again, less eyes and opportunities for questions.

And it wouldn't be a bad idea to put a piece of tape over the blinking green lights on the Tesla charge connector. Attracts less attention that way. If I were working in town regularly and parking at the same place all the time, I'd check in with the garage manager, but for one-off occasional use this can work.

Basically, don't draw attention to something that's stealing, and if you're going to steal a lot, be sure to tell someone.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I said this on the first page ...

Surprised so many disagrees when he paid $14 and “stole” (according to some) a whopping $0.17/hr of power (108 V x 16 A continuous x $0.10/kWh).

What if the lot is perfectly fine with EVs L1 charging? For $0.17/hr they get your parking money instead of another lot without plugs.

If the lot is perfectly fine with it, then there's nothing wrong going on.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Uh huh...

Let me quote the OP:

So I tried to find a spot on an upper level, where fewer cars would be parked or driving by my car. Fewer eyes to see and fewer people to ask questions. Then once on an upper level, I tried to park off in the back. Again, less eyes and opportunities for questions.

And it wouldn't be a bad idea to put a piece of tape over the blinking green lights on the Tesla charge connector. Attracts less attention that way. If I were working in town regularly and parking at the same place all the time, I'd check in with the garage manager, but for one-off occasional use this can work.

Basically, don't draw attention to something that's stealing, and if you're going to steal a lot, be sure to tell someone.

If you're going to steal a lot, be sure to tell someone??? Checking in with the garage manager implies asking for permission. If you are granted permission how is it theft?

If he did it once without asking, it might be theft. If he later planned to do it a lot, and got permission, then if the permission is a pre-standing policy that's been in place for a while, the first ocurrence was not theft, and certainly the ocurrences AFTER getting permission are NOT theft.

If the policy didn't exist and was made up on the spot, then the first ocurrence was theft.

Hiding your $500 charger from potential vandalism is not any indication of theft going on. Taking something that isn't permitted is theft. If the owner is fine with you taking the L1 power to charge your EV, it is NOT THEFT. Period.

 

[WilliamG]

If you're going to steal a lot, be sure to tell someone??? Checking in with the garage manager implies asking for permission. If you are granted permission how is it theft?

If he did it once without asking, it might be theft. If he later planned to do it a lot, and got permission, then if the permission is a pre-standing policy that's been in place for a while, the first ocurrence was not theft, and certainly the ocurrences AFTER getting permission are NOT theft.

If the policy didn't exist and was made up on the spot, then the first ocurrence was theft.

Hiding your $500 charger from potential vandalism is not any indication of theft going on. Taking something that isn't permitted is theft. If the owner is fine with you taking the L1 power to charge your EV, it is NOT THEFT. Period.

Um, redundant statement much? Obviously if he asked, it's fine. But from the first post there's a lot of assumptions being made, and when he says if you're going to do it a lot you should ask - that's the nail in the coffin. Are you kidding me? What, so a moral compass dictates whether it's theft or not? Well, if you do it once, fine.. twice, yeah it's ok. But three times or more? Not ok? Or is three times fine, but not four?

Theft is theft. If there's just one outlet hidden away in a parking garage, it's clearly not designed for charging an EV. I mean, come on.

If this wasn't obviously theft, the thread would start with - hey quick tip, go ask the garage owner if it's ok to charge your EV. End of story.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Um, redundant statement much? Obviously if he asked, it's fine. But from the first post there's a lot of assumptions being made, and when he says if you're going to do it a lot you should ask - that's the nail in the coffin. Are you kidding me? What, so a moral compass dictates whether it's theft or not? Well, if you do it once, fine.. twice, yeah it's ok. But three times or more? Not ok? Or is three times fine, but not four?

Theft is theft. If there's just one outlet hidden away in a parking garage, it's clearly not designed for charging an EV. I mean, come on.

If this wasn't obviously theft, the thread would start with - hey quick tip, go ask the garage owner if it's ok to charge your EV. End of story.

You are right, "theft is theft". Um, redundant statement much?

If you take something with permission, it's not theft. The permission can be granted to you without you knowing it ahead of time. It's not theft if it is allowed. If you take water from a public water fountain without asking for permission, it's not theft. Even if you act sneaky while you take the water.... like let's say you came from a country where you have to buy a water-drinking permit to have permission to drink from public fountains. LOL.

If he went to the exact same parkade and asked, and they said "yes, sure, we always let anyone plug in EVs wherever they want", then what he did already wasn't theft. You are ASSUMING it is already theft. I'm saying ... do NOT ASSUME. You don't know.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Let's put it this way. Does anyone want to wager $500 on whether the parkade owner is okay with EV chargers or not?

If you are so sure it is theft, you would bet on it.

 

[darth_vad3r]

You are right, "theft is theft". Um, redundant statement much?

If you take something with permission, it's not theft. The permission can be granted to you without you knowing it ahead of time. It's not theft if it is allowed. If you take water from a public water fountain without asking for permission, it's not theft. Even if you act sneaky while you take the water.... like let's say you came from a country where you have to buy a water-drinking permit to have permission to drink from public fountains. LOL.

If he went to the exact same parkade and asked, and they said "yes, sure, we always let anyone plug in EVs wherever they want", then what he did already wasn't theft. You are ASSUMING it is already theft. I'm saying ... do NOT ASSUME. You don't know.

@WilliamG , curious what statement that I made do you disagree with?

 

[WilliamG]

@WilliamG , curious what statement that I made do you disagree with?

Where do I start?

 

[darth_vad3r]

Where do I start?

Well, I could number the sentences for you. It seems you disagree with the very definition of theft? Or ??

theft
/THeft/
noun

1. the action or crime of stealing.

steal
/stēl/
verb

1. take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

Do we agree on these definitions, or do you disagree?

 

[WilliamG]

Well, I could number the sentences for you. It seems you disagree with the very definition of theft? Or ??

theft
/THeft/
noun

1. the action or crime of stealing.

steal
/stēl/
verb

1. take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

Do we agree on these definitions, or do you disagree?

I agree with those definitions, yes.