Here's a tip for charging in parking garages

[darth_vad3r]

You can't pretend the third state doesn't exist just because it could change in the future. The hair-splitting comes in to play in that gray area.

It’s not pretendng it doesn’t exist, The thirds “state” collapses to the other two when you make the legal determination of if something was theft or not. It is both theft and not theft until you ask. Schroedinger’s theft. Simple.

You can’t get charged for theft in the unknown state.

 

[Runt8]

It’s not pretendng it doesn’t exist, The thirds “state” collapses to the other two when you make the legal determination of if something was theft or not. It is both theft and not theft until you ask. Schroedinger’s theft. Simple.

You can’t get charged for theft in the unknown state.

But if the determination is never made, then the third state still exists, and in that state I believe it should be treated as theft while you don't. Hence the hair-splitting.

And still no response to the actual substance of my original post.

 

[darth_vad3r]

And still no response to the actual substance of my original post.

What substance, your opinion of the OP? He seems shady? He thought he was stealing? These may be true, but it’s not relevant to my only point, which is you can’t steal what you are permitted to take. Even if you act shady and think you are stealing.

But if the determination is never made, then the third state still exists, and in that state I believe it should be treated as theft while you don't. Hence the hair-splitting..

Have you heard of innocent until proven guilty? That is not how law works.

If you want to say you think he is “wrong”, fine. But theft is a legal term. He’s not guilty of theft until the facts about permission are discovered. Period.

 

[timk225]

The world is not black and white. We life in the gray area of life known as "The Real World". That is the third choice.

**DEEP THOUGHTS**

 

[daniel]

... You can’t assess if it is theft or not, until you know if there is permission. Not ASKING for permission doesn’t mean you don’t have permission.

Wow! Just wow! So if I sneak into your car and drive away with it without your knowledge, nobody should call me a thief because they don't know for sure if I had your permission? And maybe you'd give me permission after the fact because after all it's just a car?

... While we are conversing about the idea of "was it stealing for 17 cents", let's debate the moral standards of someone charging FOURTEEN DOLLARS for a parking spot. Who is the real thief here? ...

Do you really not understand the difference between a transaction freely entered into by two parties, and taking something without asking first? Do you feel it's okay to steal a candy bar from a grocery store because they charge too much for milk?

And to go back to the airport example, even if the security guards are busy with other things, the airport administration is well aware that people are plugging in, and if they didn't want that, they could easily put up signs saying "This outlet is not for public use." The fact that they do not do this is reason enough to assume they don't mind. This is very different from the speeding example because states and municipalities post very clear signs saying what the speed limit is.

Common sense, people, common sense! Seeking out an obscure outlet in a hidden place and plugging in without asking: probably stealing; plugging in in a public place where it's obvious, and where everyone does it, and the proprietors have posted no signs asking you not to: probably allowed; driving faster than the clearly-posted speed limit: illegal, even though in most (but not all!) places the cops will give you some leeway before ticketing you.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Wow! Just wow! So if I sneak into your car and drive away with it without your knowledge, nobody should call me a thief because they don't know for sure if I had your permission? And maybe you'd give me permission after the fact because after all it's just a car?

Someone can call you a thief but they might be wrong. For example, if you were a relative and had a key, are you a thief? I can give you permission after the fact and not have you charged with theft, yes. If it is a car share and you use your phone to unlock the car and drive away are you a thief?

If you are a stranger stealing my locked car by breaking in and hotwiring it, you’ve already committed a crime before taking the car. In that case you are a thief.

On the other hand if I’m an eccentric millionaire with a sign on my lawn saying “come take a free car” and I leave the doors unlocked and keys in the ignition then what’s the deal?

LOL. So many ridiculous examples people are trying to use to justify their jumping to conclusions. You would be excluded from a jury surely. Hopefully anyways.

OP paid for parking, entered the parkade legally, and then plugged into an unmarked outlet. Sounds like your airport description below. “Since nobody did anything about it, I guess it was permitted”. Except I’m not saying that. I’m saying nobody here knows if the parkade in question allows it.

Do you really not understand the difference between a transaction freely entered into by two parties, and taking something without asking first? Do you feel it's okay to steal a candy bar from a grocery store because they charge too much for milk?

This appeared directed at OP, but for the record I don’t feel that’s ok

And to go back to the airport example, even if the security guards are busy with other things, the airport administration is well aware that people are plugging in, and if they didn't want that, they could easily put up signs saying "This outlet is not for public use." The fact that they do not do this is reason enough to assume they don't mind. This is very different from the speeding example because states and municipalities post very clear signs saying what the speed limit is.

How about ... “the parking garage administration is well aware that people are plugging in, and if they didn't want that, they could easily put up signs saying "This outlet is not for public use." The fact that they do not do this is reason enough to assume they don't mind.”

Common sense, people, common sense! Seeking out an obscure outlet in a hidden place and plugging in without asking: probably stealing; plugging in in a public place where it's obvious, and where everyone does it, and the proprietors have posted no signs asking you not to: probably allowed; driving faster than the clearly-posted speed limit: illegal, even though in most (but not all!) places the cops will give you some leeway before ticketing you.

Hey, great. You’ve downgraded to “probably stealing”! I’ll take that as a win. You are admitting that it might not be stealing. That was my only point.

 

[daniel]

...
How about ... “the parking garage administration is well aware that people are plugging in, and if they didn't want that, they could easily put up signs saying "This outlet is not for public use." The fact that they do not do this is reason enough to assume they don't mind.”

Seriously? At an obscure outlet in a hidden corner that the OP had to search out? And at a time when most people don't even think about EVs. Common sense: In the airport it's obvious that people are plugging in, the administration is well aware of it, and they post no signs; in the parking garage the owner probably doesn't even realize that there's an outlet in a hidden corner at the back.

The entire tone of the OP implied knowledge of guilt.

As for juries, you seem ill-informed of the jury selection process. If somebody were designing a judicial system with the intention of making sure that the guilty were acquitted and the innocent were convicted, they could hardly do better than the system we have now.

Or maybe you have all too good a knowledge of it, since you sound like a lawyer trying to instill doubt in the minds of a jury when you know your client is guilty.

 

[timk225]

The entire tone of the OP implied knowledge of guilt.

Well now, there's one more thing to remember, and this was mentioned in my video (Link in post #51). Safety and security for my charging cord. That thing is $300 to replace, and even in a garage where signs are posted saying it is okay to charge, I would not want to leave it hanging out in the open for people to see and possibly damage it. If nothing else, they could take the 5-20 adapter end which would cost $35 to replace.

So out of sight, out of mind.

 

[timk225]

Boy, it got awfully quiet around here all of a sudden. Was the debate settled and I didn't know it?

I was down at another parking garage in a different part of the city a few days ago. I used to work at a company across the street from this garage before I had my Tesla. I went back in, looking for power outlets to charge from. This garage was built differently, a big 7 floor steel frame with concrete slabs to drive on as you spiral up to the top floor and back down. The only outlets I saw were on a conduit that ran up the center of the garage, between the floors, all the way to the top. With a pair of 5-20 outlets on each floor. I wonder if it is just a set of 12 gauge wires in that conduit, or heavier wires that could take the load of a car charging on each floor?

Maybe I can make a sort of YouTube series out of this subject, got to get those subscriber and view numbers way up! I'm off work the next 4 days, this will give me something to do!

 

[Big Earl]

Boy, it got awfully quiet around here all of a sudden. Was the debate settled and I didn't know it?

I was down at another parking garage in a different part of the city a few days ago. I used to work at a company across the street from this garage before I had my Tesla. I went back in, looking for power outlets to charge from. This garage was built differently, a big 7 floor steel frame with concrete slabs to drive on as you spiral up to the top floor and back down. The only outlets I saw were on a conduit that ran up the center of the garage, between the floors, all the way to the top. With a pair of 5-20 outlets on each floor. I wonder if it is just a set of 12 gauge wires in that conduit, or heavier wires that could take the load of a car charging on each floor?

Maybe I can make a sort of YouTube series out of this subject, got to get those subscriber and view numbers way up! I'm off work the next 4 days, this will give me something to do!

I watched your videos and there are quite a few outlets in prominent places throughout the garage. I tried to call yesterday but just got a voicemail. The lady in charge has a cheerful voicemail greeting, at least. I figure things look favorable, especially considering the Marriott is there. Hotels generally bend over backward to accommodate guest requests, so I'd expect the parking facility to be accommodating, as well.

As for the new garage with outlets branched off of a single conduit, it's unlikely that they're all circuited individually. Two EVs plugged in might trip the circuit breaker, even if they're on different floors. I've seen that in other malls, where a conduit on a single circuit spans several floors.