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Here's What's Missing from Self-Driving Cars: TRUST

Discussion in 'Model S' started by NerdUno, Jun 25, 2017.

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  1. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    This article explains the missing component in Tesla's epic journey to full self-driving better than I ever could. If you can't trust the word of the company that's making life and death decisions for you when you're riding in your FSD vehicle, then where are you? Put another way, if a company is willing to lie about vehicle capabilities just to sell cars, how can you trust them to be honest in explaining what your car will and won't do in an actual emergency situation?

    To Reap the Benefits of Autonomous Tech, We Need to Learn to Trust It
     
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  2. DJ 240V

    DJ 240V Member

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    No disagreement with the concept. But what is the lie ? So far we have been told not take the hands off the wheel, and consider the system as an assist and that we are incharge at all times. People want to believe that it can be trusted - there is a big difference.

    My approach at this point is to NOT to trust it and I'm a much happier driver with rational expectations. Now having said that I do agree you aren't a relaxed driver until it can be trusted 100%
     
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  3. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Just take every number Tesla publishes or has it's UI or API report, and most of them are lies. Not only that, but even in the midst of huge owner controversy, they keep implementing changes that make the discrepancy even worse. Take for example charging rate. In normal math, 16.4 rounds to 16. In Tesla math(tm) 16.4 rounds to 17. Hell, 16.1 rounds to 17. Extend this to nearly every aspect of the car, where it's not even a rounding error, it's a blatant lie.
     
  4. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    Lies? You want to talk about Tesla lies?? Let's see...

    On board music storage
    Lighted vanity mirrors
    Being told on the day of delivery your car didn't come with next-gen seats, only to be asked to wait 6 months to get them
    AP2-to-AP1 parity by end of December (rotfl)
    P85D 691 HP fraud
    0-60 times in Norway fraud (owners sued and settled w/ Tesla for over $7,000 each)
    Elon saying owners can upgrade to larger batteries - really?
    Every loaner will be a Model S better than yours (stated multiple times by Musk, as recently as a few weeks ago)
    Encouraging people to "floor it" while at the same time throttling performance for those who floored it too much
    Quarterly "new UI" promises that never materialize

    ... I could be here all day.
     
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  5. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    When I see things like this I feel like saying, Grow Up! Every for-profit company does this. I don't like it or agree with it, but it is pervasive. Singling out Tesla for transgressions is silly.

    As far as Autopilot goes, most people trust it more than they should, so I don't see the problem having a few skeptics out there.
     
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  6. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    More apologist BS. If companies do this, they get taken to court, and they lose. Not something you want to do if you want your BRAND to mean something, forget about trusting your damn life to the car.
     
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  7. Ugliest1

    Ugliest1 S85: "Sparky"

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    Totally agree, on every point. However it does get tiresome when skeptics go on ad nauseam.

    And I also (IMO) think people throw out the word "lie" way too often. /Sarcasm: Perhaps we're actually lucky Tesla doesn't do "marketing", since that is normally synonymous with "lying". /Sarcasm

    I pulled this picture last year, I think right around HW2 release time, when there was a whole **** ton of commentary that Tesla shouldn't call AP "Autopilot", because it wasn't full self-driving yet, and I saw many references to "lies". Well, Mercedes by all accounts has a significantly less capable product, and here's what they "lied" about:
    MercedesSelfDriving.jpg
     
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  8. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    Really? Every for-profit company lies about its products and breaks promises to its customers? Would you mind illustrating your point with a few examples? The bottom line is that Tesla shot itself in the foot. It made its entire mission about autonomy when it didn't need to. Sales were going along just fine before Autopilot. Tesla could have chosen to focus on quality, comfort, performance and range. Instead, it chose to focus on performance and this other thing called Autopilot. At a time when the competition was nowhere close to providing autonomy. Tesla didn't need to do it, nobody even had this expectation of Tesla. It's Tesla's own fault threads like this even exist.
     
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  9. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    No they do not. Most do not. It's like saying most people crash cars and die because you read about it in the paper. You read about because it's unusual.

    If your company acts that way, fix it. Unless you are amoral, then don't bother. At least you will probably get famous for 15 minutes at some point.

    Tesla markets their goals. I doubt missing their goals is intentional.
     
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  10. Swift

    Swift Member

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    Respectfully I disagree. The Mercedes ad is just that, an ad. It goes on to make some general statements about features like "self correcting", auto parking etc.

    I was told about specific features by the authorized Tesla employee I bought my car from. I was taken for a ride in an AP1 car to demonstrate many of those features. I was shown videos of other features working in a "beta" car. I was given a specific timetable of when a number of those features were to be enabled. I spent a lot of money based on those statements.

    I experienced none of that when looking at Mercedes.
     
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  11. tezzla

    tezzla Member

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    How about VW dieselgate?
    How about GM's ignition switch?
     
  12. Ugliest1

    Ugliest1 S85: "Sparky"

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    Let's think about OP from a health insurance perspective (in Canada, this would be for purchasing travel health insurance for trips outside the country where one is not automatically covered).
    I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right. But @Cosmacelf's comment "Grow up" to me means, this is the way most or all the world operates, so don't take everything at face value.

    Just the level of described anger against Tesla -- well, all other businesses embellish the capabilities of their products and/or exaggerate their willingness to actually serve their customers, prior to some negative event happening. I think on average in the automotive industry, Tesla does a far better job than any other. So yes, Tesla is not perfect as a new company competing against century-old makes... but I'd TRUST them far more over the other choices out there. The Russian in me also says "but verify".

    And, as I posted somewhere else last week, if/when we do end up buying a Model 3 and Autopilot isn't quite working yet ("but it'll be released next week"), I won't be putting my money down for that option until it actually *IS* ready. That's the great thing about Tesla's s/w infrastructure. Dang, even the car without AP is going to be great! I can say that because my old, slow, blind Dec 2013 Model S is such a fabulous vehicle to drive and waaaaaaay better than ICEing.
     
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  13. Swift

    Swift Member

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    I think those compare more directly to the Tesla secret power limiting update, parking brake issue, etc if you ask me...
     
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  14. Ugliest1

    Ugliest1 S85: "Sparky"

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    This is a far better way of saying it than my "all companies embellish" comment (although there is a certain measure of truth in that).

    I think a lot of people first misinterpret a "goal" as a "promise" (boy that's an overused word), and second think that an Elon date has some meaning on the Gregorian calendar.
     
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  15. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    #15 Cosmacelf, Jun 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
    It is arguable about the Autopilot. Elon is nothing if not forward thinking. Actually, if he has a fault in his strategic thinking, it is that he looks ahead too far and reacts too quickly. Timing is everything and Elon sometimes needlessly sacrifices short term profit for long term gain by reacting too quickly, but the threat is real, so eventually he's right.

    So on the Autopilot, Elon can easily see that the rest of the auto industry will eventually, slowly, catch up to Tesla. It is already starting to happen today with the Bolt. 2-3 years from now we will have a slew of competitors with greater than 200 mile range and a much better CCS charging infrastructure (thanks VW dieselgate!). Tesla could continue to produce ordinary EVs, but Elon decided that he needed something else to differentiate Tesla from the eventual competitive onslaught, and that was Autonomy.

    Not only that, but Elon perceived that autonomy was the next killer app for transportation. We all know that EVs are the current killer app for transport now. But if GM brought out an ICE with full or near autonomy, people wouldn't give a second look at an EV unless it too had similar autonomy. Autonomy is THAT important.

    Moreover autonomy is REALLY REALLY difficult. Any car company, even an Elon managed Tesla, can't sit on its thumbs and decide one day to bring out autonomy. You need to build it, learn from it, deliver what you can, learn from your successes and mistakes, and build a competent engineering team. All that takes years. And almost all of the other car manufacturers know it too. Almost all of them have autonomous engineering teams of their own.

    So I don't think jumping in with autonomy was the distinctly wrong thing to do. Tesla has certainly been more bold about it than other car companies, but that's at most an issue about style.

    As far as the other focus on performance goes, it isn't my cup of tea either. The original Model S had plenty of power for me, and since then we've gotten Insane, Ludicrous and Ludicrous+. I shudder to think what Maximum Plaid will be like. Nonetheless, read any almost any review and the car's power is surely one of the selling points. I suspect the Model 3 will be back to normal - slightly better power than the Bolt, but that's about it. Regardless, power sells. It has been like that for over a hundred years...
     
  16. Swift

    Swift Member

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    Really? See below.

     
  17. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Like how many times do i have to be right?

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    Lies? Like the initial Autopilot promised features that are still missing?
    Lies? Like the AP1 Parity and EAP will be complete and released by December 2016. (We are past 9 months and still nothing)
    Lies? Like how some self driving features will be release in maybe 3 months and definitely 6 months. (We have passed 3 months and currently on the 6th month)


    There are NO EAP features, there are NO self driving features. All there is are more lies to cover the lies.
    Like this:

    [​IMG]


    Just got this in the email... 15 mins before this post. • r/teslamotors

    none of these listed features are apart of EAP feature list. The lies keep mounting up. Elon is basically a bamboozling hype sales man.
    I mean the showmanship is ridiculous. Like how L5 complete autonomy will be released in literally 6 months. Like seriously? And some ppl here actually foolishly believe him. smh
     
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  18. Ugliest1

    Ugliest1 S85: "Sparky"

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    Ok... so, I'm inferring you test drove an AP1 car but purchased an AP2 car based on the video'd beta car, and the timetable was woefully later than specified, and that's why you're unhappy? I can understand that AP2 customers are [fill in negative emotion here]. At least AP2 customers will ... eventually ... get there. Those of us with no AP hardware won't.

    I guess the other thing is it sounds like you didn't buy the Mercedes. So we don't know what you would have experienced with Mercedes service or how their vehicle operates. My question: leaving AP on the Tesla *OFF* (i.e., out of the picture, pun intended), is the Model S (or X?) better, more fun, etc to drive than the Mercedes?
     
  19. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    One other thing I'll say about Tesla's over hyped promises, of which here is a probably incomplete list:

    - Initial production delivery dates (all of them)
    - Model X cargo space with fold flat second row seats
    - 5 minute charging with battery swaps
    - The end of range anxiety with Trip Planner
    - Huge Tesla Energy opportunity (still waiting for meaningful revenues!)
    - Calling their lane keeping feature "Auto Pilot"

    Elon isn't stupid, so why does Tesla keep on doing things like this? Because he has to. Tesla has a VERY ambitious mission and the capital spending requirements to go along with it. The gigafactory and the most capable worldwide charging network aren't cheap, not to mention all the R&D required for cutting edge everything. Tesla ABSOLUTELY needs to raise fresh equity and debt on a routine basis to keep growing, expanding, and delivering on its mission. In today's environment you cannot raise capital WITHOUT hype. If you follow Tesla stock price closely, as I have since the IPO, you'll see that it responds well to Tesla's forward looking hype. If Tesla's stock price never moved from the $30 a share doldrums it had been in for years after the IPO, Tesla would never have built the Supercharger network, never have built the gigafactory, and the Model 3 would still be a dream.
     
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  20. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    My point exactly. And when FSD finally arrives and Tesla tries to beat everyone else out the door with it, how many short cuts do you think will have been taken. Sleep in your FSD car if you must. But it may be a very permanent sleep. o_O
     

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