Here's What's Missing from Self-Driving Cars: TRUST

[verygreen]

Tesla ABSOLUTELY needs to raise fresh equity and debt on a routine basis to keep growing, expanding, and delivering on its mission. In today's environment you cannot raise capital WITHOUT hype. If you follow Tesla stock price closely, as I have since the IPO, you'll see that it responds well to Tesla's forward looking hype. If Tesla's stock price never moved from the $30 a share doldrums it had been in for years after the IPO, Tesla would never have built the Supercharger network, never have built the gigafactory, and the Model 3 would still be a dream.

Did you consider what would happen once the hype stops working for one reason or another, though?
I imagine lots of people buy Teslas due to the promise of FSD, and then discover it's nowhere near. They tell others and so more and more people know FSD is a pipe dream.
Eventually there'd need to be something else to attract people, I wonder what that would be that would have a similarly wide appeal.
(lots of people don't care about speed or handling or other such things, or they think they don't care until they experience it and then think they still can live without it.)

 

[Cosmacelf]

Did you consider what would happen once the hype stops working for one reason or another, though?
I imagine lots of people buy Teslas due to the promise of FSD, and then discover it's nowhere near. They tell others and so more and more people know FSD is a pipe dream.
Eventually there'd need to be something else to attract people, I wonder what that would be that would have a similarly wide appeal.
(lots of people don't care about speed or handling or other such things, or they think they don't care until they experience it and then think they still can live without it.)

I agree, but you can't even get out of the starting gate unless you have raised a lot of capital. And that requires hype. Or should I say, "painting an optimistic scenario".

For more evidence of my conjecture, look at how Elon runs SpaceX and how he runs Tesla. He's CEO of both. I'll grant you they aren't similar companies at all, one sells to consumers, one to large corporations. But one other salient difference is that SpaceX is private and Tesla is public. They both need to raise huge amounts of money to keep growing. All I hear from SpaceX is anti-hype. "Oh we'll try to land a first stage, but it'll probably blow up". I don't know what the SpaceX investor deck is like since all money is raised privately, but that's where the hype would be. Since Tesla is public, and money is raised from people like you and me, the hype has to be public.

 

[oktane]

Lies? Like the initial Autopilot promised features that are still missing?
Lies? Like the AP1 Parity and EAP will be complete and released by December 2016. (We are past 9 months and still nothing)
Lies? Like how some self driving features will be release in maybe 3 months and definitely 6 months. (We have passed 3 months and currently on the 6th month)


There are NO EAP features, there are NO self driving features. All there is are more lies to cover the lies.
Like this:

Just got this in the email... 15 mins before this post. • r/teslamotors

none of these listed features are apart of EAP feature list. The lies keep mounting up. Elon is basically a bamboozling hype sales man.
I mean the showmanship is ridiculous. Like how L5 complete autonomy will be released in literally 6 months. Like seriously? And some ppl here actually foolishly believe him. smh

This is a total effing joke, Tesla has gone off the deep end with their lies. Seeing this blatant disregard for the truth in their website makes me want to punch my screen. Tesla = scam.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

How about VW dieselgate?
How about GM's ignition switch?

I think those compare more directly to the Tesla secret power limiting update, parking brake issue, etc if you ask me...

Ummm ... what?

Tesla's power limiting update didn't directly cause 124 deaths like GMs ignition switches.

Tesla's parking brake issue didn't cause 500,000 cars to dump NOx emissions equivalent to 20,000,000 cars into the atmosphere for 6 years in direct violation of the Clean Air Act (and that's just in the US).

If you want to argue that Tesla hasn't fulfilled promises and has made dubious decisions that affect owners then you have some points. But when your emotions have blinded you to the point where your arguments degenerate into complete fantasies like this claim of false equivalency then no one can take you seriously.

 

[verygreen]

This is a total effing joke, Tesla has gone off the deep end with their lies. Seeing this blatant disregard for the truth in their website makes me want to punch my screen. Tesla = scam.

If only there was a way to hold companies responsible for such things.
Some sort of a council or other such mechanism where highly regarded members of society could gather and issue binding opinions about actions of companies and people then we could try to bring it to their attention.
Even better if there was a way to do it on behalf of many people since most of them have no time to spend on such trivial matters or sometimes are not even realizing they are being wronged.
Oh well...

 

[Cosmacelf]

The self correcting mechanism for excessive hype is the free market.

 

[Swift]

Ummm ... what?

Tesla's power limiting update didn't directly cause 124 deaths like GMs ignition switches.

Tesla's parking brake issue didn't cause 500,000 cars to dump NOx emissions equivalent to 20,000,000 cars into the atmosphere for 6 years in direct violation of the Clean Air Act (and that's just in the US).

If you want to argue that Tesla hasn't fulfilled promises and has made dubious decisions that affect owners then you have some points. But when your emotions have blinded you to the point where your arguments degenerate into complete fantasies like this claim of false equivalency then no one can take you seriously.

I was categorically distinguishing between post sale issues and pre sale promises. But I somewhat enjoyed your overreaction so no worries.

 

[Snerruc]

If only there was a way to hold companies responsible for such things.
Some sort of a council or other such mechanism where highly regarded members of society could gather and issue binding opinions about actions of companies and people then we could try to bring it to their attention.
Even better if there was a way to do it on behalf of many people since most of them have no time to spend on such trivial matters or sometimes are not even realizing they are being wronged.
Oh well...

There is. It is called the legal system. Trial lawyers could make a fortune off this ( and have in other businesses). We need to sue more not less.

 

[verygreen]

There is. It is called the legal system. Trial lawyers could make a fortune off this ( and have in other businesses). We need to sue more not less.

 

[b team]

There is. It is called the legal system. Trial lawyers could make a fortune off this ( and have in other businesses). We need to sue more not less.

I don't see specific promises that have been broken. Just a lot of hype about what the future could bring, and in all probability still will. If you think you have been wronged, you should definitely sue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This article explains the missing component in Tesla's epic journey to full self-driving better than I ever could. If you can't trust the word of the company that's making life and death decisions for you when you're riding in your FSD vehicle, then where are you? Put another way, if a company is willing to lie about vehicle capabilities just to sell cars, how can you trust them to be honest in explaining what your car will and won't do in an actual emergency situation?

To Reap the Benefits of Autonomous Tech, We Need to Learn to Trust It

I'm not sure if anyone bothered to read the article, but it talks about something else completely. It doesn't say what is missing from autonomous tech is trust in the company. Rather what is missing is that autonomous tech is not designed to react like a human and that is why people inherently don't trust it. It doesn't matter what the company says, just that from interaction with the tech, it acts very "robotic" and thus not trustworthy (according to article).

 

[Swift]

I don't see specific promises that have been broken. Just a lot of hype about what the future could bring, and in all probability still will.

I think you need to read the forums more. There are also plenty of media articles covering specific promises that have been made but not delivered on.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Respectfully I disagree. The Mercedes ad is just that, an ad. It goes on to make some general statements about features like "self correcting", auto parking etc.

I was told about specific features by the authorized Tesla employee I bought my car from. I was taken for a ride in an AP1 car to demonstrate many of those features. I was shown videos of other features working in a "beta" car. I was given a specific timetable of when a number of those features were to be enabled. I spent a lot of money based on those statements.

I experienced none of that when looking at Mercedes.

Maybe because you haven't bothered looking at Mercedes?

If you go to a Mercedes dealership I'm sure the salesperson will also tell you some fibs about the features (in fact, the impression seems to be this is par for the course for typical car dealerships).

Here's Mercedes' video of their "beta" self driving car:

 

[verygreen]

Maybe because you haven't bothered looking at Mercedes?

If you go to a Mercedes dealership I'm sure the salesperson will also tell you some fibs about the features (in fact, the impression seems to be this is par for the course for typical car dealerships).

Funny you say that, I've been to Mercedes before taking delivery of my car (and some other dealers too - you know, to see what else you can get for MX money, so I have a point of reference when taking my X delivered, after all I am not a car person and was mostly interested in the computer side of the Tesla, my prior car cost 5x less when new).
So my local dealer had only one autopilot-capable (or whatever it was called in Mercedes-speak) GLS, that also happened to be an AMG monstrosity. The salesperson totally downplayed the autopilot, but I still tried it just to see it in action.
Volvo guys (another entrant in this game) totally did not mention availability of anything similar even though I did ask.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I was categorically distinguishing between post sale issues and pre sale promises.

That was not clear. In this thread, the people who are upset with Tesla are upset with both of those categories of behavior from the company. There doesn't appear to be a differentiation between them.

I think my point extrapolates to several posts in this thread as well as throughout the rest of the forum. I agree that Tesla has not done a good job of fulfilling promises. I also agree that they have made decisions (particularly the power limitations in the P90Ds) that are ill-conceived. But there are some that are so angry about these items (and others) that their arguments are from emotion rather than facts.

Now, why am I not angry as well? The difference with me is that I look at Tesla's missteps separately from the end product.

If I take away all of Elon's hot air, all statements and specs that were at one time posted on the web site, all the promises in tweets, all the missteps in firmware rollouts, etc. and boil it all away until all I'm left with is the car and it's real-life feature set, am I still happy? Yes, I am. The car is still superior to every other car on the road despite all that. Could I hold all of that other stuff against Tesla and be perpetually pissed? Sure. I choose not to, and instead I wanna drive the hell out of the car because life's too short.

 

[Buster1]

To the OP. I get what you're saying, and your frustrations, they are valid.

However, look at what Tesla has done to the EV marketplace...in just 5 years since the Model S was released. It's pretty amazing (EV infrastructure, increased vehicle range, etc)

Your complaints are akin to pointing out flaws to Rockwell about how they built the Space Shuttle, or seat comfort on the Wright Flyer, or battery life on your iPhone.

I guess what I'm saying, is that Tesla has done some remarkable engineering, in a really fast timeframe. I expect to have a few quirks. But an electric car, that looks cool, and goes 0-60 in 4-5 seconds, AND at a reasonable cost. COUNT ME IN! What, are we in the future!

 

[stopcrazypp]

Funny you say that, I've been to Mercedes before taking delivery of my car (and some other dealers too - you know, to see what else you can get for MX money, so I have a point of reference when taking my X delivered, after all I am not a car person and was mostly interested in the computer side of the Tesla, my prior car cost 5x less when new).
So my local dealer had only one autopilot-capable (or whatever it was called in Mercedes-speak) GLS, that also happened to be an AMG monstrosity. The salesperson totally downplayed the autopilot, but I still tried it just to see it in action.
Volvo guys (another entrant in this game) totally did not mention availability of anything similar even though I did ask.

Sales people will adjust their fibs to whatever they need to push. Given that dealership did not even have that option available, they obviously aren't going to push it. Volvo's system was a joke until the pilot assist 2 system (not sure what era Volvo you looked into).

But I'm sure they will tell fibs about other options they are trying to push (most common rust proofing, paint/interior protection, extra warranties).

 

[verygreen]

Sales people will adjust their fibs to whatever they need to push. Given that dealership did not even have that option available, they obviously aren't going to push it. Volvo's system was a joke until the pilot assist 2 system (not sure what era Volvo you looked into).

But I'm sure they will tell fibs about other options they are trying to push (most common rust proofing, paint/interior protection, extra warranties).

They did have the AMG, but the salesperson talked it down from the get go too warning me how it's not for everyone (and I got what he was meaning after driving it), he knew the price was not a concern because I disclosed I am looking at it as a potential Tesla replacement.
all testdrives were at the end of March 2017, so whatever was available - I tried.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

It's a little hard to trust a car when you have to reboot the car to get the cell connection to work again.

It's not just Tesla, but has anyone used anything recently designed that actually works consistently? Without glitches?

Like just today

The internet was down so I power cycled the device that brings in fiber, and connects it through Ethernet to the router. That happens like once every 3 months.

I just bought a bike radar, and on the first ride it gave me error 3:1 so I had to reboot it.

I can just imagine a self driving car.

"Sorry something bad has happened so hold on tight"

 

[Swift]

Maybe because you haven't bothered looking at Mercedes?

If you go to a Mercedes dealership I'm sure the salesperson will also tell you some fibs about the features (in fact, the impression seems to be this is par for the course for typical car dealerships).

Here's Mercedes' video of their "beta" self driving car:

I did. MB's central selling points are quite different than Tesla's as I'm sure you'd admit. Tesla focused extensively on AP and automation, making a number of very specific time-bound commitments as part of the sale and not delivering on them. I own 2 MBs and have not had this experience with either.