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Here's What's Missing from Self-Driving Cars: TRUST

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In this thread, the people who are upset with Tesla are upset with both of those categories of behavior from the company. There doesn't appear to be a differentiation between them.
I've been doing my best to distinguish between them. I think you'll find more of the complaints are about sales promises not kept.

I understand the post-sale stuff. Most of that was either unintentional or not originally anticipated by Tesla. I think that's par for the course along with other manufacturers.
 
In transportation people already have to use a lot of trust.
There's nothing complicated. If it works the statistics will make it blindingly obvious that it's better and the level of adoption will depend on cost.
And there are no moral dilemmas to be solved: just try not to hit stuff, and if you' must hit stuff, try to do it as slowly as possible.
Just hope that it if happens it's cheap enough that autonomous taxi will become the normal mode of transportation. Because if it's just a replacement for taxi and truck drivers, it'll mean more centralization of wealth.
 
My Niece just wants EVERYTHING TO BE AWESOME!

Sometimes that does not happen.

Tough on Snowflakes
Yea, except Tesla doesn't accept the same attitude back. They sold me a car that was advertised as 691hp car. When during a test drive I mentioned the fact that the power meter doesn't seem to go that high, they told me that an over the air update is coming soon for "more power at passing speeds". It took them a while to eventually admit, the car's battery and wiring limits it to 463hp in ideal conditions - my car should be producing 50% more power than it does! They tried to weasel out with nonsense BS posts, but finally Tesla had to came clean about the actual HP. They justified it with BS about how the motors are capable, but limited by the rest of the car. HOWEVER, it they are willing to accept such arguments, why won't they give people new Teslas in exchange for check that is capable of the full price of a car, but limited by the account balance? Somehow they only want perfect checks, with account balances that can deliver every penny.o_O Tesla definitely has a double standard on that one, they don't accept the same BS they are asking their customers to accept.
 
Lies? You want to talk about Tesla lies?? Let's see...

...

... I could be here all day.

Oh come on, now! It's not THAT bad! I went through and responded to your list.

Let's See...

On board music storage - Yup! It's called a USB stick you keep in the glove compartment.
Lighted vanity mirrors - Lit by the interior "overheads."
Being told on the day of delivery your car didn't come with next-gen seats, only to be asked to wait 6 months to get them - not even a lie. They told you it didn't come with them when you went to pick up the car.
AP2-to-AP1 parity by end of December (rotfl) - But WHICH December? There's always another one coming...
P85D 691 HP fraud - They say the MOTOR's capable of that. It's everything else that isn't.
0-60 times in Norway fraud (owners sued and settled w/ Tesla for over $7,000 each) - Yeah, ok.
Elon saying owners can upgrade to larger batteries - really? - Of course you can. It may come with a whole new vehicle attached, but unless you have a 100, you CAN upgrade.
Every loaner will be a Model S better than yours (stated multiple times by Musk, as recently as a few weeks ago) - This depends on the criteria used to conclude "better." Maybe Tesla's criteria aren't the same as ours.
Encouraging people to "floor it" while at the same time throttling performance for those who floored it too much - This one's a grey area.
Quarterly "new UI" promises that never materialize - So every quarter they promise a new UI. Since time has not yet come to an end, there could be one - someday.

So there you have it. A few "missed deadlines" and such, but only the Norway thing can really be said to be a lie, right? :rolleyes:
 
I'm not sure if anyone bothered to read the article, but it talks about something else completely. It doesn't say what is missing from autonomous tech is trust in the company. Rather what is missing is that autonomous tech is not designed to react like a human and that is why people inherently don't trust it. It doesn't matter what the company says, just that from interaction with the tech, it acts very "robotic" and thus not trustworthy (according to article).

I think you missed the whole point of my post. Before you can get to TRUST of autonomous tech (covered in the article), you first must have TRUST in the company that designed it (my point). When you go to Six Flags and get on the roller coaster, you explicitly TRUST that the designers of the ride did it in such a way that it's not going to fly off the rails at the first turn. Can you say the same thing about Tesla? And, if so, based on what evidence?

Get it now?
 
When I see things like this I feel like saying, Grow Up! Every for-profit company does this. I don't like it or agree with it, but it is pervasive. Singling out Tesla for transgressions is silly.

As far as Autopilot goes, most people trust it more than they should, so I don't see the problem having a few skeptics out there.

Agreed. I often wonder if the people complaining actually own cars and if they do if they can read. When I activated my car there was a big disclaimer telling me (words to the effect of) that the software was BETA and that I should keep my hands on the wheel at all times and remain alert. If I take my car off of the wheel the dash flashes and tells me to put them back on. How anyone can interpret this as being able to trust your car to drive you around town unattended is beyond me.
 
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I think you need to read the forums more. There are also plenty of media articles covering specific promises that have been made but not delivered on.
Please direct me to a judgment by a court in which it has been determined that Tesla committed fraud. Trial by people who imagine they were promised more than they were is not impartial. Relax and enjoy your future-mobile.
 
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Please direct me to a judgment by a court in which it has been determined that Tesla committed fraud. Trial by people who imagine they were promised more than they were is not impartial. Relax and enjoy your future-mobile.
See AWDtsla's post above. He beat me to it. Expect more of these. There are other actions in the early stages now.
 
I think you missed the whole point of my post. Before you can get to TRUST of autonomous tech (covered in the article), you first must have TRUST in the company that designed it (my point). When you go to Six Flags and get on the roller coaster, you explicitly TRUST that the designers of the ride did it in such a way that it's not going to fly off the rails at the first turn. Can you say the same thing about Tesla? And, if so, based on what evidence?

Get it now?
In terms of AP, what Tesla misses tends to be expected schedule of release, but in terms of the quality of the features, I don't see how it is any worse than other automakers. The objective comparisons still have Tesla on top (this might change with the release of GM's Supercruise; I expect to see updated comparos when that comes out).

This is covered at length elsewhere, so I don't want to rehash (we have tons and tons of threads on this):
Fatal Flaw in AP2 Design
 
but in terms of the quality of the features, I don't see how it is any worse than other automakers.

I have tons of counterarguments to that which I won't get into now. But Tesla software quality has been a pet peeve of mine since day 2 of ownership. Tesla only beats the other manufacturers in quantity of updates, DEFINITELY not quality. Quality is rock bottom.
 
I have tons of counterarguments to that which I won't get into now. But Tesla software quality has been a pet peeve of mine since day 2 of ownership. Tesla only beats the other manufacturers in quantity of updates, DEFINITELY not quality. Quality is rock bottom.
Yes, I know there are people here of the opinion that Tesla is the worst, but the comparisons done by professional automobile reviewers under the same conditions (this part is important) say otherwise. The only thing is by this point the comparisons are outdated (done on AP1 before 8.0), I look forward to seeing new comparisons done with AP2.
 
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Did you consider what would happen once the hype stops working for one reason or another, though?
I imagine lots of people buy Teslas due to the promise of FSD, and then discover it's nowhere near. They tell others and so more and more people know FSD is a pipe dream.
Eventually there'd need to be something else to attract people, I wonder what that would be that would have a similarly wide appeal.
(lots of people don't care about speed or handling or other such things, or they think they don't care until they experience it and then think they still can live without it.)
You don't need to wait for word of mouth, there is already a class action lawsuit against Tesla over this very issue.

Maybe because you haven't bothered looking at Mercedes?

If you go to a Mercedes dealership I'm sure the salesperson will also tell you some fibs about the features (in fact, the impression seems to be this is par for the course for typical car dealerships).

Here's Mercedes' video of their "beta" self driving car:
Except that Mercedes doesn't sell any "beta self driving car". But Tesla sure does.
 
You don't need to wait for word of mouth, there is already a class action lawsuit against Tesla over this very issue.
I know about it, but this does not help with increasing awareness of the issue, so the class just keeps growing. No major sources to claim how bad the situation is, so people are going on the glowing reports they overheard elsewhere at one time or another.
(the FedEx driver that delivered my plates from Tesla commented about my "self driving car" for example)
 
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I know about it, but this does not help with increasing awareness of the issue, so the class just keeps growing. No major sources to claim how bad the situation is, so people are going on the glowing reports they overheard elsewhere at one time or another.
(the FedEx driver that delivered my plates from Tesla commented about my "self driving car" for example)
I have a bad feeling the Tesla bubble is going to burst.
 
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The complaints about Tesla are legitimate -- mostly everyone who owns a Tesla will have at least some -- and there's certainly lots of room for improvement.

But this is a new car company operating under high stakes in a for-profit game. "Mr. Niceguy" companies die or are bought out by Amazon. Most experts doubted a new car company could be started up in the first place, and many expected Tesla to fail. Instead, they exceeded expectations.

Call it excuses, I don't care. What I do care about is the hypocrisy of many of the constant Tesla bashers. I understand not selling your Tesla and taking a loss but it boggles the mind that people here will complain so much about Tesla, then keep buying their products. If people take the position that Tesla fails at trust, honesty and integrity, and some even call them liars and frauds, how can they then turn around and continue to buy their products? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me -- right? Not for many of the Tesla bashers.

I called out @wk057 on this very issue because he constantly bashed Tesla, calling them liars repeatedly, so I asked him a simple question: Will you buy another Tesla product? He said never again but then he did. I bet it's the same with a lot of the bashers. You'd never get me buying another product from a company that I thought lied to me, even if there was no competition. So how bad is Tesla really if many of the bashers keep buying? I guess we have our answer here:

98% of the respondents in Consumer Reports’ Annual Auto Survey stated that they would definitely buy the car again. Tesla Model S is way ahead of all other plug-in cars, hybrids and conventional cars by over 10%.

Seems all the bashing hasn't even made the slightest dent.
 
I have a bad feeling the Tesla bubble is going to burst.

People spending 100k-160k on a car are a rare breed of people. A lot of people here will defend Tesla in the indefensible just because of the mission. The 25-35k range is a very very different story. Try pull that **** on them. Like Hyundai getting sued(and losing) over a 1.5% discrepancy in power.

Of course, Model 3 is getting the same software stack. Full of all the same fudging.
 
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