Here's Why No Tesla Retrofits Yet

[Lightmatrix]

They haven't hired anyone to manage the program yet.

Retrofit/Upgrade Product Manager | Tesla Motors | Tesla

Description
VEHICLE ENHANCEMENTS RETROFIT/UPGRADE PRODUCT MANAGER

Responsibilities

• Manages the program deliverables related to vehicle retrofits and upgrades such as: Ludicrous Retrofits, Roadster 3.0, Firmware-only upgrades, Tow Hitch, etc.
• Directly responsible for all product activities pre-launch, sustainment, improvement, and end-of-life.
• Ensure critical requirements are met and well-documented: technical process, business flow/process, system set up and readiness, parts availability, global pricing, Service Center readiness, internal/external speaking points, status tracking, order administration set up, trouble-shooting network
• Act as primary lead and driver with relevant internal and external teams to ensure product release milestones stay on schedule.
• Identify concerns and bottlenecks, and lead cross-functional teams to resolve them.

Requirements

• Strong communication, organization, presentation, and documentation skills are a MUST.
• 5 years of relevant automotive or project management experience and expertise in cross-functional product management.
• Demonstrates a proven ability to research information, solve challenging problems, and coordinate projects under tight timing constraints.
• Bachelor's degree in Engineering or Business Administration (MBA a plus).
• Proficiency in Microsoft Excel and Powerpoint.
• Able to accomplish tasks with minimal direction and supervision.

APPLY

 

[habanero69]

They haven't hired anyone to manage the program yet.

Retrofit/Upgrade Product Manager | Tesla Motors | Tesla

Description
VEHICLE ENHANCEMENTS RETROFIT/UPGRADE PRODUCT MANAGER

Responsibilities

• Manages the program deliverables related to vehicle retrofits and upgrades such as: Ludicrous Retrofits, Roadster 3.0, Firmware-only upgrades, Tow Hitch, etc.
• Directly responsible for all product activities pre-launch, sustainment, improvement, and end-of-life.
• Ensure critical requirements are met and well-documented: technical process, business flow/process, system set up and readiness, parts availability, global pricing, Service Center readiness, internal/external speaking points, status tracking, order administration set up, trouble-shooting network
• Act as primary lead and driver with relevant internal and external teams to ensure product release milestones stay on schedule.
• Identify concerns and bottlenecks, and lead cross-functional teams to resolve them.

Requirements

• Strong communication, organization, presentation, and documentation skills are a MUST.
• 5 years of relevant automotive or project management experience and expertise in cross-functional product management.
• Demonstrates a proven ability to research information, solve challenging problems, and coordinate projects under tight timing constraints.
• Bachelor's degree in Engineering or Business Administration (MBA a plus).
• Proficiency in Microsoft Excel and Powerpoint.
• Able to accomplish tasks with minimal direction and supervision.

APPLY

That does NOT sound like they are doing AP1.0 to AP2.0 or those type of retro's, so if that's what you are reading into this, I'd not get hopes up...

 

[Lon12]

I'm hoping for the increased battery capacity upgrades. Elon tweeted that we would be allowed to do that one day. Keeping my fingers crossed for that.

 

[Lightmatrix]

That does NOT sound like they are doing AP1.0 to AP2.0 or those type of retro's, so if that's what you are reading into this, I'd not get hopes up...

Not at all... interesting though what they do mention is not a lot of items outside of "etc":

Ludicrous Retrofits, Roadster 3.0, Firmware-only upgrades, Tow Hitch, etc.

 

[Lightmatrix]

They haven't hired anyone to manage the program yet.

Retrofit/Upgrade Product Manager | Tesla Motors | Tesla

Description
VEHICLE ENHANCEMENTS RETROFIT/UPGRADE PRODUCT MANAGER

Responsibilities

• Manages the program deliverables related to vehicle retrofits and upgrades such as: Ludicrous Retrofits, Roadster 3.0, Firmware-only upgrades, Tow Hitch, etc.
• Directly responsible for all product activities pre-launch, sustainment, improvement, and end-of-life.
• Ensure critical requirements are met and well-documented: technical process, business flow/process, system set up and readiness, parts availability, global pricing, Service Center readiness, internal/external speaking points, status tracking, order administration set up, trouble-shooting network
• Act as primary lead and driver with relevant internal and external teams to ensure product release milestones stay on schedule.
• Identify concerns and bottlenecks, and lead cross-functional teams to resolve them.

Requirements

• Strong communication, organization, presentation, and documentation skills are a MUST.
• 5 years of relevant automotive or project management experience and expertise in cross-functional product management.
• Demonstrates a proven ability to research information, solve challenging problems, and coordinate projects under tight timing constraints.
• Bachelor's degree in Engineering or Business Administration (MBA a plus).
• Proficiency in Microsoft Excel and Powerpoint.
• Able to accomplish tasks with minimal direction and supervision.

APPLY

Unfortunately for Tesla however the salary is probably somewhere in the $45,000 - $55,000 range for this role. Their pay-scale for anyone who is not an engineer is terrible although the promise of course is, "Salary offset by future stock value!" AND you get to commute/figure out how to live in Bay Area.

 

[Justicepool]

This would be really good if they are able to offer those services. I wonder if one could ever add a second motor to become an "all wheel drive" car?

 

[ecarfan]

I would not assume that once Tesla fills that position, there will be AP1 to AP2 upgrades available, or other major upgrades available that have not bee offered in the past.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

You can't live on $50,000 per year in California. You can barely live on $100,000 a year in California.

 

[robby]

I would not assume that once Tesla fills that position, there will be AP1 to AP2 upgrades available, or other major upgrades available that have not bee offered in the past.

I make no assumptions, but I think eventually the economics will tip the scales and they will find an autonomous option for early owners.

Elon says it's cheaper to upgrade to a new car than to upgrade hardware. Fine, that's possible today given that most AP1 cars are less than a year old. But there is some point on the depreciation schedule where this flips. When the Model 3 is readily available and my 85D AP1 car is worth $35k, are you going to tell me it would cost $65k to retrofit it to AP2 hardware? It might be a lot, it might be five figures, but it's not that much. You could drill through all panels, rip out, reupholster and refinish the entire car for tens of thousands less than that.

So the bigger question, I think, is what happens in a few years, when autonomous vehicles are readily available for $40k, rendering today's vehicles virtually worthless without an upgrade path. At that point, dropping low five figures on a self-driving retrofit is pretty sensible.

 

[Footer]

I make no assumptions, but I think eventually the economics will tip the scales and they will find an autonomous option for early owners.

Elon says it's cheaper to upgrade to a new car than to upgrade hardware. Fine, that's possible today given that most AP1 cars are less than a year old. But there is some point on the depreciation schedule where this flips. When the Model 3 is readily available and my 85D AP1 car is worth $35k, are you going to tell me it would cost $65k to retrofit it to AP2 hardware? It might be a lot, it might be five figures, but it's not that much. You could drill through all panels, rip out, reupholster and refinish the entire car for tens of thousands less than that.

So the bigger question, I think, is what happens in a few years, when autonomous vehicles are readily available for $40k, rendering today's vehicles virtually worthless without an upgrade path. At that point, dropping low five figures on a self-driving retrofit is pretty sensible.

For the 60,000 of us who had AP0.0 it would likely have cost in the $20,000 neighborhood to get AP1.0 from Tesla based on the only known retrofit by Jason Hughes. Probably even more. It would have cost me about $15,000 to trade mine in for a slightly newer car with AP1.0, but I decided to spend $40,000 and trade in for a new, better equipped 90D with AP1.0, unfortunately 11 days before AP2.0 was announced.

For AP2.0 the retrofit will be even more costly with all the extra cameras and a new computer, probably well over $30,000. That cost won't go down as the years go by, whereas the differential between an equivalent AP1.0 and AP2.0 CPO car will go down.

There are only 100,000 of us with AP1.0 cars. Speaking only for myself, I would not spend $30,000 to have an AP2.0 retrofit done. Since the tax credit will likely be expired when I make my next move I will probably trade in on a 1 year old CPO to get closer to the latest technology. I probably would not trade in for a 4th quarter 2016 90D but I expect if I did it would be less than $20,000. Lots of people like AP0.0 and AP1.0 cars and they will still have value in 3 years. Other than AP2.0, your 85D will still be a better car than the 2019 Model 3.

I don't think the economics are there for Tesla to devote the time figuring out exactly how much the upgrade would cost so they could price it fairly. They have enough on their plate as it is.

 

[robby]

For the 60,000 of us who had AP0.0 it would likely have cost in the $20,000 neighborhood to get AP1.0 from Tesla based on the only known retrofit by Jason Hughes. Probably even more. It would have cost me about $15,000 to trade mine in for a slightly newer car with AP1.0, but I decided to spend $40,000 and trade in for a new, better equipped 90D with AP1.0, unfortunately 11 days before AP2.0 was announced.

For AP2.0 the retrofit will be even more costly with all the extra cameras and a new computer, probably well over $30,000. That cost won't go down as the years go by, whereas the differential between an equivalent AP1.0 and AP2.0 CPO car will go down.

There are only 100,000 of us with AP1.0 cars. Speaking only for myself, I would not spend $30,000 to have an AP2.0 retrofit done. Since the tax credit will likely be expired when I make my next move I will probably trade in on a 1 year old CPO to get closer to the latest technology. I probably would not trade in for a 4th quarter 2016 90D but I expect if I did it would be less than $20,000. Lots of people like AP0.0 and AP1.0 cars and they will still have value in 3 years. Other than AP2.0, your 85D will still be a better car than the 2019 Model 3.

I don't think the economics are there for Tesla to devote the time figuring out exactly how much the upgrade would cost so they could price it fairly. They have enough on their plate as it is.

Fair points, and to each his own.

FWIW, Jason has indicated this is more doable than Tesla has let on -- that retrofitting AP1 was 6x cheaper than trading up, that he could do Classic => AP1 in under a day with an assistant, that he'll probably retrofit AP2 as well, and that he finds Musk's numbers hard to believe.[1]

My 85D has 30k miles on it, so my trade-up cost is closer to $40k, plus financing, plus sales tax, plus an MA excise tax reset -- it adds up! $30k today would be painful but it'd still be a lot cheaper than the buy-sell delta and in a couple years it'd be a no-brainer. The calculation is probably different if you buy a new car every few years, but I drive my cars as long as I can -- I stepped up to a Tesla from a '96 RAV4 -- so flipping isn't something I'd consider lightly.

It's true that other than AP2, a '15 S will probably beat out a '17 3. But I think self-driving tech will be a game changer and dwarf all other features in utility and desirability. If I'm wrong about that, then I'll be similarly wrong on the economics. But if I'm right, I think I have a case here.

[1]
Jason Hughes on Twitter
Jason Hughes on Twitter
Jason Hughes on Twitter
Jason Hughes on Twitter

 

[HankLloydRight]

I'd think we'd see a facelift nosecone retrofit long before an AP2.0 retrofit. And even the nosecone retrofit is highly unlikely.

IOW, there won't ever be an AP1.0->AP2.0 update. It's much, much, cheaper just to buy a new car.

I wonder if one could ever add a second motor to become an "all wheel drive" car?

That's even less likely than an AP2.0 retrofit.

 

[Footer]

Fair points, and to each his own.

FWIW, Jason has indicated this is more doable than Tesla has let on -- that retrofitting AP1 was 6x cheaper than trading up, that he could do Classic => AP1 in under a day with an assistant, that he'll probably retrofit AP2 as well, and that he finds Musk's numbers hard to believe.[1]

My 85D has 30k miles on it, so my trade-up cost is closer to $40k, plus financing, plus sales tax, plus an MA excise tax reset -- it adds up! $30k today would be painful but it'd still be a lot cheaper than the buy-sell delta and in a couple years it'd be a no-brainer. The calculation is probably different if you buy a new car every few years, but I drive my cars as long as I can -- I stepped up to a Tesla from a '96 RAV4 -- so flipping isn't something I'd consider lightly.

It's true that other than AP2, a '15 S will probably beat out a '17 3. But I think self-driving tech will be a game changer and dwarf all other features in utility and desirability. If I'm wrong about that, then I'll be similarly wrong on the economics. But if I'm right, I think I have a case here.

Thanks for the new tweets from Jason. All I remembered was ~$10,000 in parts and a week's labor. Maybe Tesla can get parts cheaper and get the labor cost down to $3,000 but they need to make money and devote scarce resources for something that doesn't advance their agenda. Presumably AP2.0 will be costlier. Hope Jason gives it a go.

Presumably you are comparing the cost of trading in your 85D for a new 90D with AP2.0. Most of that difference is depreciation on your car. Some of it will be new features. The part of that cost that is for AP2.0 should be considerably less than the cost to retrofit. I got $50,000 for my trade-in. If I had AP1.0 it would have been closer to $60,000. Therefore the cost for not having AP1.0 was $10,000, which was really Elon's point the first time around. He never actually gave any numbers except to say the cost difference trading in would be lower than to retrofit.

It's true that I would have kept my S85 if it had AP1.0 and traded it in later. It would have cost me less money in overall depreciation over time. I think you feel the same way about your 85D. The good thing is you don't really need to trade in for a couple years until AP2 is working. You will have gotten more value out of your 85D and the 2016 90D will have dropped a lot. Hopefully it won't cost you too much to trade. As long as it is lower or in the same ballpark as the retrofit cost of AP2.0 then Elon's comments are justified.

 

[brantse]

FWIW, Jason has indicated this is more doable than Tesla has let on

Although this may be true, you can't blame Tesla to prioritize things and just say that [at the moment] it's not doable. There's obviously the reason that they'll sell more cars [and make more $$] by not allowing owners to upgrade; but at the moment, their plate is pretty full. I'd rather them ensure that they can handle fixing cars, rather than having technicians work on performing customer requested upgrades.

 

[TrevTremaine]

One of the things I would hope to start seeing from Tesla is, in a nutshell, vehicle recycling. If the body integrity is good, the motors are good, I can see a retrofitting program to upgrade older cars with newer software and hardware while reducing landfill. I know it's still a logistical nightmare to manage, but the question is can they do it with a profit? I would hope so. It's too easy to just throw away things these days.

 

[redruMKO]

Does any other manufacturer retrofit anything at all, let alone core systems? I wonder where there expectation is coming from?

 

[HankLloydRight]

Does any other manufacturer retrofit anything at all, let alone core systems? I wonder where there expectation is coming from?

"Irrational Exuberance"

(Irrational exuberance - Wikipedia)

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Assuming you retrofit AP 1.0 or AP 2.0 into a classic car, will Tesla allow your VIN onto the AP network?

 

[Jhall118]

Spent some time looking at the new hardware. From a hardware point of view, it hardly looks difficult. Only the top parts of the B pillars, the ultrasound sensors (same holes), a replacement windshield with the new camera, and the side cameras are just replaced by the turn indicators... meaning the hole is already there.

Wiring would be difficult, but certainly not impossible with some know-how to make custom connectors. Not sure on where the chip is in the new one, but that isn't impossible. My personal computer is watercooled. It's not rocket surgery, and the most invasive part would be removing the rear bumper.

My issue would be software. Would Tesla let me activate it? Probably not for less than the outrageous 10 grand.

Currently, to sell my P85D and get a new, slower, 90D would be over 30 grand delta. Even Tesla's high labor rates don't make this job that expensive. It's a false narrative to sell new cars (not saying this is a bad thing!).

 

[seclinton]

I'd be happy to just add RFS in my serial 10456 baby. Trying to swing it during repairs at Brooks Motors