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Here's why the 3 isn't a mainstream "affordable" car
- Thread starter dreamingof3
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- Model 3
WhiskySTL
Member
"Hate" is a very strong word. I do not see hate here.
I love a car that can be designed, engineered and manufactured in the USA! Gonna love my model 3 that much more knowing I'm supporting my fellow engineers 
And I would say that a lot of 4 door sedans can be comparable to the model 3 especially in price, but not in terms of performance, safety, and cost of ownership.
And I would say that a lot of 4 door sedans can be comparable to the model 3 especially in price, but not in terms of performance, safety, and cost of ownership.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
Seems I struck a nerve with the international finance majors on the board. The point is, Toyota is not an American company. Sure, the US sees some benefits by Toyota building cars here, but it was not a humanitarian effort. Toyota didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They benefit the most.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
maybe in the case of a Raptor which is kinda a special make vehicle.
Regular trucks with every luxury imaginable sticker in the 60s and sell in the 50s after rebates/markdowns and currently 0% interest
seattlite2004
Active Member
The 2018 Camry and other foreign badged cars have been designed in the US....not necessarily Engineered (detailed design). Heck...Tesla's Roadster was Lotus based...yeah Engineering was probably in the US...but it's a Lotus design. Personally.....I'd love to buy an all American car....whether that exists is obviously debatable.I love a car that can be designed, engineered and manufactured in the USA! Gonna love my model 3 that much more knowing I'm supporting my fellow engineers
And I would say that a lot of 4 door sedans can be comparable to the model 3 especially in price, but not in terms of performance, safety, and cost of ownership.
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JeffK
Well-Known Member
They've been working on kaizen since shortly after World War II.
Tesla has been working on this as well, but at the same time they are pushing the boundaries of the technology, increasing production numbers, and growing as a company..
When comparing the early Model Ss to the later builds, it's easy to see how much they've improved. I can't wait to see Tesla in another ten years.
This is not the most expensive, but build one this way:
2500 crew cab
4x4 (elocker or equivalent of course)
diesel
highest trim level (leather/power/etc trim)
rear entertainment.
Now let's say you don't want to be seen in a pickup that everybody else with a Stetson is drivin':
Build and price the F-450 Platinum or King Ranch. With no options they are $78k and $73k respectively.
I configured a F-450 with options I'd like. It was $87,699 after incentives.
IIRC, in Feb 2004, I bought diesel 4x4 3500SRW SLT w/entertainment group for $54k? Corrected for inflation that's $71k. It was not fully optioned, but close.
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It's a different topic but if GM wanted to do something useful.. instead of the super boring Chevy bolt (which nobody is going to buy), why not build a nice electric pick up truck.
Superior handling, 0 to 60 under 5 seconds etc, 90 mpe etc. I am pretty sure this would have a lot of appeal over a standard pick up truck.
Superior handling, 0 to 60 under 5 seconds etc, 90 mpe etc. I am pretty sure this would have a lot of appeal over a standard pick up truck.
fsch
Member
brucet999
Active Member
Interesting idea.
My first reaction was that Ford owns that market. But after some research, I found out that Chevy + GMC sales are slightly ahead of Ford in the segment, both company's pickups garnering about 12% of total vehicle sales in the US.
My second reaction was that the mindset of pickup buyers is too macho to accept electric, based upon all the dualies, diesels and 4WD pickups I see. But I recently talked to a building contractor friend who lamented the high cost of fuel for his work pickup. It may be that cost-conscious contractors and sub-contractors (who make up, what, 1/2 the pickup market?) might see the advantage of lower cost and plenty of torque if the range is sufficient and home/shop overnight charging speed is fast enough.
My third reaction is that payload and GVWR may be a problem. Model S weighs something like 4500lb with a payload of about 950lb, making GVWR about 5500lb. A typical 3/4 ton ICE (Chevy Silverado 2500) pickup will have a curb weight of about 5800lb and GVWR of about 9200lb, giving it a payload of about 3400lb. V8 pickup engines/transmissions weigh up to 1000lb. MS battery pack and motors probably weigh 1500lb. A 3/4 ton pickup would have to have probably twice the pack size to manage the poorer wind resistance and extra payload and still deliver 300 miles range, so the electric pickup curb weight would have to be something like 1500lb higher than an ICE pickup and charge rate would have to be twice as high as MS.
Garlan Garner
Banned
I'm not sure who mainstream is.
Teachers? Average Salary around $47K
Is a $35K car affordable to the average single teacher?
Teachers? Average Salary around $47K
Is a $35K car affordable to the average single teacher?
Because if they won't buy an electric car, why would they buy an electric truck? Ask VIA Motors how's it hangin'.
For a pickup to have the range of the Bolt, it will require about 3.0 times the battery. So the battery will weigh about 2,400lb. The truck would have to be huge. The BEV version will be roughly $27,000 more than the ICE V8 gas version.
California is the biggest demand for EVs, but we don't have cheap electricity during the daytime, in fact, exactly the opposite. To get 250 miles of range on the new 2017 TOU Demand commercial rates during the day, it will cost over 50 dollars. There is no real savings there since gasoline wouid be about $40. Even at night rates, you'd never recover the $27k in purchase price before the truck is retired.
If your electricity was free, it would take 180,000 miles to break even.
EREV is the only solution, but again, the price of electricity in California, and the newer more efficient gas pickups make a poor choice for a business. Now a small van? Yeah, that could possibly pay for itself, especially if EREV.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
World of difference between light duty and class 3 trucks. Did we really need to split this hair?
An F-450 is not a medium duty truck. It's a badged F-350. F-650/750 is medium duty. F-450 = Super Duty Light Truck.
But if you insist, the F-250 Platinum 4x4 CC diesel is $72k after incentives with no options. It is $83k nicely equipped.
Yes, the diesel F-750 with a stakebed is cheaper than a F-250 loaded.
If the dealer did this it's a big reason tesla buyers prefer their tesla buying experience. One thing I cannot stand is dealers trying to sell "paint protection", "fabric protection", and expensive extended warranties they roll into the payments. Dealers get a bad rap for this very reason. They try to roll as many "extras" into the payment. They are trying to sell you on a payment not just a car. If they can trick you into 50 extra bucks on your payment they are making a killing on the sale.Good job Mod - can you move the country into quarantine too?
Back on topic - if the Camry is the benchmark - then the Toyota has a lot of catching up to do. The new Avalon my mother in law bought is a dog of a car - floaty, old school Cadillac like, knobs everywhere, rough shifting, noisy and frankly a car with reused Toyota parts from 1990 with very little change - kinda like a lawn tractor - with very reliable parts and a dealership network with their hand out for oil changes and anything they can squeeze out of you.
She's 80 and did an impulse buy and they screwed her bad - sold her last years model at full price with tons of mark up... same thing the Cadillac dealer did to her for over 40 years... (she would get a new one every two years) and they were constantly pulling cash out of her and her husband for stupid stuff -- "we changed the air in the tires" and aligned the FM antenna.. etc. etc... I finally got her to look at other stuff and she picked Toyota - which is good for ICE, but not so good compared to Electric... (if she drives 4000 miles a year, I would be stunned) and with Auto pilot it might be more useful than the Avalon in a couple of years.
I largely agree that the Model 3 isn't a mainstream car, and certainly not a "mass market affordable car". You're right about that.
Strongly disagree that the aero wheels are lame. Not only do they look cool, but I think, knowing how significantly wheels impact aero, "pretty wheels" look completely *stupid* - and especially so on an EV, which after all can't replenish its energy stores as quickly and easily as ICE vehicles.
Also strongly disagree that Model S is superior, never mind far superior. For me, Model 3 is doubtless the better car, mainly because its size is more managable (there is a world outside the US, and "everything" is smaller there - lanes are narrower, parking spaces are smaller, and even the people). I also believe it is a much sharper drive, as this seems to be universally accepted, though I've never driven the Model S myself, only been a passenger.
Even though Model 3 isn't mainstream, there are many places in the world where the total cost of ownership for a Model 3 should be very competitive with similarly-sized cars. (In Europe, again, people prefer smaller. The best-selling cars in Europe are nothing like a BMW 3-series; it's the Toyota Corolla, the VW Golf, Nissan Micra, that sort of thing. And they cost from €15k or so.) Gasoline continues to be stupidly cheap in the United States. In Europe, carbon taxes double the price - or more, in Norway which is a large net oil exporter!
To sum up, I think you're right to point out the hype is a bit overblown. But what Tesla has achieved is still amazing. Personally, I wish more people held Tesla, and especially Elon Musk (who seems to be at the root of this aspect of Tesla, unlike the good engineering), much more to account.
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