I didn't say it was better. I said it is what most Americans deem affordable and mass market at 20k
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Here's why the 3 isn't a mainstream "affordable" car
- Thread starter dreamingof3
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- Model 3
Well, actually the Tesla Secret Master Plan does in fact say:
- Build sports car
- Use that money to build an affordable car
However, the affordable car they are referring to is the Model S. The Model 3 is "even more affordable", so affordable ls obviously all relative. But the Model 3 was clearly never intended to compete with the Camry's of the world. Tesla has been very clear that they intended it to compete with BMW and Audi. Anybody who expected anything different hasn't been paying attention.
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
This thread has troll written all over it. There are countless threads comparing the Tesla to [Vehicle] in this forum where it is quite competitive. If the OP is in any way serious about the question, do a little searching first.
So what are they waiting for? Why haven't nearly half of the 455,000 people with preorders (as of a month ago) canceled yet? The pricing information is out there for everyone to see. Why did net preorders continue to climb after the reveal?
WhiskySTL
Member
Yes, I wish they'd get on with it. I'm way down the line... Please cancel!
Ormond
Endless Peacock
If you listen to the reveal video for the Model 3, or a recent Tesla investor call, Musk references cars in the entry luxury class. Audi A4, Mercedes Benz C300, and BMW. I don't think it's intended to compete with the venerable Camry.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
First:
Mass market does not mean affordable and affordable does not mean mass market.
Second:
As of July 2017 the average sale price of a new vehicle was $34,721.
Average sale price for an EV is $37,976
Average sale price for an entry level luxury car is $41,989
Assuming a normal distribution, these prices mean that half the sales are greater than this and half the sales are below this. Half the people in the market for a new vehicle can afford a Model 3.
New-Car Transaction Prices Rise Nearly 2 Percent Year-Over-Year in July 2017, According To Kelley Blue Book
Mass market does not mean affordable and affordable does not mean mass market.
Second:
As of July 2017 the average sale price of a new vehicle was $34,721.
Average sale price for an EV is $37,976
Average sale price for an entry level luxury car is $41,989
Assuming a normal distribution, these prices mean that half the sales are greater than this and half the sales are below this. Half the people in the market for a new vehicle can afford a Model 3.
New-Car Transaction Prices Rise Nearly 2 Percent Year-Over-Year in July 2017, According To Kelley Blue Book
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
With one big caveat: the ASP includes SUVs and trucks.
I've looked for sedan ASP before and IIRC $23 - 25k is mid range. OTOH, a large swath of the Accord/Camry market buy more expensive trims and pay close to $30k so the better question here is whether the base Model 3 includes the extras that this group is willing to pay for.
My take: the base Model is within striking distance of the Accord/Camry if fueling is from PV and the car ends up having Honda/Toyota level reliability.
Total MSRP
Base MSRP
CAMRY XSE V6
$40,994 $34,950
Color
Exterior: Interior:
Midnight Black Metallic / Wind Chill Pearl Black Perforated Leather
$0
$0 $0
Standard Equipment
$0
Packages
Driver Assist Package: Navigation Package:
$1,990
$1,050 $940
Accessories
Phone Cable & Charge Package with Two USB Ports Door Sill Protector w/Front Door Illumination
Carpet Mats w/ Trunk Mat
Mudguards
Clear Paint Protection - Full Hood Package Wheel Locks
TOYOGUARD Platinum
Special Color
Two-Tone Body Color;
$3,164
$189
$299
$399
$199
$419
$65
$699
$395
$500
Delivery, Process, and Handling Fee
Total MSRP
$890
$40,994
There you have it. Camry MSRP ends out at $40,994 including $895 for special paint (two upcharges totaled).
There is lots one does not get that is on the M3.
Even though the vehicles are not even remotely comparable the Camry and the Model 3 are in the same ballpark.
I think the OP has not actually priced a new car considering the options one would choose. People are constantly amazed that they never buy anything at the base price.
Base MSRP
CAMRY XSE V6
$40,994 $34,950
Color
Exterior: Interior:
Midnight Black Metallic / Wind Chill Pearl Black Perforated Leather
$0
$0 $0
Standard Equipment
$0
Packages
Driver Assist Package: Navigation Package:
$1,990
$1,050 $940
Accessories
Phone Cable & Charge Package with Two USB Ports Door Sill Protector w/Front Door Illumination
Carpet Mats w/ Trunk Mat
Mudguards
Clear Paint Protection - Full Hood Package Wheel Locks
TOYOGUARD Platinum
Special Color
Two-Tone Body Color;
$3,164
$189
$299
$399
$199
$419
$65
$699
$395
$500
Delivery, Process, and Handling Fee
Total MSRP
$890
$40,994
There you have it. Camry MSRP ends out at $40,994 including $895 for special paint (two upcharges totaled).
There is lots one does not get that is on the M3.
Even though the vehicles are not even remotely comparable the Camry and the Model 3 are in the same ballpark.
I think the OP has not actually priced a new car considering the options one would choose. People are constantly amazed that they never buy anything at the base price.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
True (which is why I said vehicle instead of car), but the entry level luxury car ASP at $41,989 does not include trucks or CUV/SUVs.
Exactly, the Camry V6 XLE starts at $34,400 They even have some colors that you can't even buy without upgrading to the driver assistance package. You have to add that package if you want navigation so now you're up to $36,390 (for a Camry no less)
T34ME
Active Member
C141medic
Active Member
The only issue I have are with the options pricing. IMO, some of them are priced high (especially the LR battery). However; overall, I've come to admit that 35K is an excellent price point for the M3. And many people who ordered early will get all or a portion of the federal credit. And if not, they will most likely be eligible for credits/rebates in their prospective states. I'm in NJ and I'll save close to 4K just in not having to pay taxes. Try getting that for an ICE vehicle.
"mainstream" and "affordable" are two pretty different adjectives.
Any car that sells more than 50-75K units a year over the long term is fairly mainstream. The Model 3 should be, the BMW 3-series is fairly mainstream. I'd say if it sells more than 100K units a year it's pretty definable mass-market as well, and not that many individual car models sell in that volume.
Affordable in today's vernacular is usually more associated with folks at or often below the median. Affordable housing, affordable healthcare, etc. I'd use it if folks can purchase something without major consideration or strain on their existing budget, that's affordable. If they have to make some significant lifestyle choices or tradeoffs, that's not really affordable. Some Model S owners have discussed in these forums making some choices that enabled them to own a car 2-3X what they've purchased in the past - yes they can buy the car, affordable is not the term I'd use. A $35K base car, with a median selling price that's likely closer to $42K even in 2018 or 2019, is well-above the current $34K median purchase, and even that being the median is hardly the example of affordable.
I think Tesla targeted and created a mainstream car. I don't think they were really targeting "affordable", though I don't remember if they used that term or not.
Any car that sells more than 50-75K units a year over the long term is fairly mainstream. The Model 3 should be, the BMW 3-series is fairly mainstream. I'd say if it sells more than 100K units a year it's pretty definable mass-market as well, and not that many individual car models sell in that volume.
Affordable in today's vernacular is usually more associated with folks at or often below the median. Affordable housing, affordable healthcare, etc. I'd use it if folks can purchase something without major consideration or strain on their existing budget, that's affordable. If they have to make some significant lifestyle choices or tradeoffs, that's not really affordable. Some Model S owners have discussed in these forums making some choices that enabled them to own a car 2-3X what they've purchased in the past - yes they can buy the car, affordable is not the term I'd use. A $35K base car, with a median selling price that's likely closer to $42K even in 2018 or 2019, is well-above the current $34K median purchase, and even that being the median is hardly the example of affordable.
I think Tesla targeted and created a mainstream car. I don't think they were really targeting "affordable", though I don't remember if they used that term or not.
BluestarE3
Active Member
I guess OP may need to change his username to nightmareof3? 
Don't worry young grasshopper. Once they get/suck all the money out of all the early adopters... They will lower the price and make the car better in every way.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
Where are you in the theoretical line? Are you an owner/employee? When did you order?
If you're an owner or employee and/or ordered prior to 10:25am ET on 3/31....hop on out of line. Otherwise, whatever............
Also, you know what people usually think when you complain about the price of something.......
If you're factoring in tax incentives into your potential to afford the vehicle, you can't afford the vehicle. The credits/rebates are a "nice to have" after the fact incentive. You still need to buy or finance the vehicle, at full price, up front.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Right. Infact it is close to what the first Nissan Leafs sold for in 2011.
Anyone who doesn't want all that Model 3 offers, can still get a 160 mile Leaf 2 for $30k - with inexpensive options.
Musk has repeatedly said Model 3 competes with BMW 3 series etc. It is entirely another matter how many of the 3 buyers will actually be in that target market (people who would have bought an entry level premium car). As we have seen with S, not everyone would have bought a large luxury car, if not for S.
Tesla haven't said mainstream.
They've said mass market.
It will be mass market.
The price is too high to be mainstream. It will be a premium car.
Tesla has said that they will stick to the premium segment.
I think that you are misunderstanding what "mass market" means. It means that it is marketed broadly to the population, rather than being targeted at a narrow group. The fact that many people won't be able to afford it, doesn't stop it being mass market.
It is actually an affordable car in the sense of the new car market. The whole new vehicle market excludes a large proportion of the population and has average prices now comfortably in the $30ks. So the price of the car is actually not that large in the context of the new car market. They've never said it's going to be cheap.
They've said mass market.
It will be mass market.
The price is too high to be mainstream. It will be a premium car.
Tesla has said that they will stick to the premium segment.
I think that you are misunderstanding what "mass market" means. It means that it is marketed broadly to the population, rather than being targeted at a narrow group. The fact that many people won't be able to afford it, doesn't stop it being mass market.
It is actually an affordable car in the sense of the new car market. The whole new vehicle market excludes a large proportion of the population and has average prices now comfortably in the $30ks. So the price of the car is actually not that large in the context of the new car market. They've never said it's going to be cheap.
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ModelNforNerd
Active Member
That's what makes America (and in fairness to our global neighbors.......ANY free market economy) great. Can't afford it? Buy something you can. (or overleverage your credit until you can't afford your lifestyle anymore.....). OR.....work hard, save up, and get what you want. If you feel the Model 3 is no longer the value you were hoping it would be, you can take that money elsewhere.
jelloslug
Active Member
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