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High Amp J1772 or HPWC - Economics vs Standards

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Cottonwood, Sep 18, 2014.

?

If you had to pay for, or had to run the fund raising effort, what would you choose?

  1. $3,900 total cost for an Industry Standard, 80 Amp, J1772 HAL2.

    33.3%
  2. $2,000 total cost for a Proprietary Tesla HPWC.

    66.7%
  1. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    #1 Cottonwood, Sep 18, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    There has been a lot of discussion of hotels, restaurants, etc, installing Tesla HPWC's or High Amp J1772, aka High Amp Level 2 (HAL2), EVSE's. The advantage of the HPWC is that it is less expensive. The advantage of the HAL2 is that uses the J1772 standard, and all EVs that use that standard (including Teslas with an adapter) can use the HAL2. The disadvantage of the HPWC is that only Tesla Model S's (and in the future Model X's, Model 3's, etc) and use it. The disadvantage of the HAL2 is that it costs more money.

    Let's estimate that both cost $1,700 to install. Using the Destination Charging program, an HPWC is either free or costs $600, let's use an average of $300 for the HPWC. A Clipper Creek CS-100 costs $2,200.

    If you had to pay for, or had to run the fund raising effort for the equipment and installation, which would you choose:

    1. $3,900 for an Industry Standard, 80 Amp, J1772 HAL2.
    2. $2,000 for a Proprietary Tesla HPWC.

    --- Update ---
    Sorry for the poor choice of terms. I realized after I created this poll, that an HPWC is also a HAL2. The choices should have been High Amp J1772 (HAJ1772) or HPWC. Oh well, I hope you get the idea even if I expressed it poorly. Thanks for voting!
     
  2. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    I went with 2 Free HPWC's from Tesla. For the LONG foreseeable future, the Tesla vehicles are going to be the only long range EV's that will be able to reach my family's motel. A Leaf "COULD" make it, but it's cutting it VERY close. And all the other "LONG RANGE" Ev's on the market, Chevy Volt, I3, would be able to burn gas (Ok, I3 "COULD" make it like the leaf "Could". I factored in that most likely will be running on their gas engines, and would need a overnight anyways for a recharge, so a 120v would be good enough for them. Likewise for plug in prius and other plug in Hybrids.

    So I support Tesla, and their endeavor for trying to expand the overall charging footprint. Might need a Third HPWC from them.... Not sure yet, as our 4 electric meters are at capacity and dont really want the expense of upgrading utility or adding a meter JUST for EV's. That's a lot of $$$ for a small seasonal motel like ours, dispite the large number of Model S cars we get charging by us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I should clairify though, if Nissan or BMW would like to donate J1772 or CHAdeMO chargers, I would be more then happy to accept!
     
  3. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    If you are paying for it and want to benefit other Tesla owners that might be the way to go. Tesla Model Ss are really the only EV built for long range travel (Roadster too). Maybe if enough Model Ss visit that will inspire the hotel owner to install some J1772s themselves. For restaurants a HPWC makes some sense. For hotels I think installing 2-3 40-60A stations would be more useful than one 100A J1772 and be more inclusive.
     
  4. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

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    Cottonwood, where are you coming up with the $3900 number. The Clipper Creek CS-100 is a J1772 100A EVSE and list price is $2195 which is about $1000 more than the HPWC. If your HPWC+Installation costs $2000, I would expect the CS-100 to cost $3000.

    As idslandbayy said, you could potentially get the HPWC hardware for free from Tesla, so that makes it even more inexpensive. I don't think there are many (any?) EV's out there today that can benefit from more than a 30A circuit anyway, so I'd probably look to get Tesla to fund a couple of HPWC's and then install a couple of 30A EVSE's (but perhaps run #3 wire to them so they can be upgraded in the future) so you can cater to both.
     
  5. mitch672

    mitch672 Active Member

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    I'll throw a monkey wrench in the works. You can buy a HPWC, cut off the Model S connector and install a standard J-1772 connector.
    Then both standard EV's and the Model S can use the EVSE (the Model S owner would need their J-1772 adapter of course). In fact there are companies who will do this mod for you (forgot his name, he is a member here and sells EVSE cables/connectors and the Jesla).
     
  6. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    I had thought about doing that. And I did not for one really good reason. I did not pay for our HPWC's. Tesla did provide them to us. And as such, they are in good faith meant to be used with Tesla Vehicles. If I paid out of pocket, I would have no mental reservations whatsoever about putting a J1772, but, I am a good and honest person. Tesla did not provide the HPWC's to me for charging a Leaf, Volt, I3 etc... They provided them for charging a Tesla Branded Vehicle, and I would go as far as to say their is a un-said understanding about that. TESLA has been good to me. I do not want to kill the hand that feeds me so to speak.
     
  7. mitch672

    mitch672 Active Member

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    Of course. However, if the the site owner is purchasing the HPWCs without discounts from Tesla, and has multiple units, converting one of them to J-1772 allows other EVs to charge, while not prohibiting a Model S with dual chargers from using it with the J-1772 adapter.
     
  8. KJD

    KJD Member

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    Just remember, if you build it, they will come. :smile:
    I hate showing up at a charge station to find one charge station and someone already using it.

    What about installing 1 HPWC and one NEMA-1450 RV outlet in the next stall?

    Most of the EV's that travel away from home are going to be Tesla. They will want to use the HPWC.

    On the outside chance that some other EV shows up then it can use the 14-50 outlet. Every LEAF driver I know has a 14-50 adapter.

    If a 2nd Tesla shows up they could also make use of the NEMA outlet.
    Something like this also allows you to shut it off while you plug and unplug it.
    GE 70 Amp 2-Space 2-Circuit 240 Volt Unmetered RV Outlet Box with 50 Amp and 20 Amp GCFI Circuit Protected Receptacles-GE1LU502SS at The Home Depot
     
  9. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    It totally depends on your expected use. Everyone will have differenct factors determining how their EV infractructure additions will be used. I did not vote on this poll.
     
  10. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    I can't stand showing up at a site when I need 80A only to see a Volt plugged in at 15A. Even another EV at 30A or a Model S at 40A it seems like a waste of a good resource. I'm feeling a bit selfish tonight so I'll probably vote for the HPWC.

    Putting my irrational emotional response aside, the HPWC is poorly constructed and not as reliable as a CS-100. If only one is being installed and there are no other charging options nearby then I would probably vote for the CS-100. If guests have to rely on the installation then you really need a backup solution like a NEMA 14-50 or a 30A J1772.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I agree. It's hard to vote without more information.
     
  11. arg

    arg Member

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    Another factor to bear in mind:

    Longer term, _neither_ of these solutions will be satisfactory, particularly for hotels etc looking to cater for overnight charging. Hotels will need to provide a significant number of charging-enabled spaces, and will not have the supply capacity for all of them to be 20kW. Equally, most guests won't need 20kW - the average (allowing for people staying more than one night, small-capacity EVs and hybrids) is probably much less than that. On the other hand, some 20kW capacity is important, to serve day visitors - conventions, restaurant clients etc. - and people who for whatever reason failed to charge overnight.

    You could consider installing a mix of low, medium and high power stations and trying to get people to park in the right spots according to their needs, but that sounds like a nightmare to manage once you are above a couple of spots.

    The obvious answer is smarter EVSE, where each of the charge points is capable of delivering 20kW but the overall supply is much less than that and the EVSE shares out the available power based on the actual demand. This is so clearly required (even in a domestic situation with a 2-EV garage) and so easy to do that it's amazing there aren't products on the market already.

    But meantime, if the ultimate solution isn't available (or can't yet be cost-justified by a property owner who sees some demand from customers but isn't sure how it will grow), then installing now what is cheap and meets most of the requirements (ie. the HPWC subsidised by Tesla) and planning to replace it later makes a lot of sense.
     
  12. GSP

    GSP Member

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    I think some of our TMC members in the Netherlands have already done this with their homebuilt EVSEs. This is a great opportunity for EVSE manufacturers.

    For Hotels, perhaps the best short term solution would be two 80 A HPWCs, two 30 A J1772s, and a few standard GFI outlets (120 V, 20 A in US, 220 V in the UK and Europe).

    GSP
     
  13. sefs

    sefs 2012 Ford Focus Electric

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    Preface: I am a FFE owner.

    I believe going forward, the standard EV connection should be the Tesla plug. Most charging stations could easily have their cords swapped. An adapter for Tesla to J1772 could be easily manufactured. All of the J1772 vehicles could easily be kept compatible with a simple adapter. And here's the best part, Tesla connector replaces Chademo and CCS. One connector, all EV's; done. I believe this is where the industry needs to go. I can sympathize with showing up at a charging station and having it taken by a low power charging EV. I think the solution for this, as the industry progresses, is something akin to the Supercharger topology. Have multiple cordsets, the EVSE gives increasing pilot signals until it sees that the EV is taking no more power, then share the rest with other cordsets. This solves a multitude of issues. It solves the low powered EV sharing with the high powered EV, as well as multi-unit living situations. It is impractical to provide 100 amp branch circuits that are required by the NEC to be accounted for at full demand. This brings up the level of infrastructure dramatically. If you had an intelligent EVSE with 4 cordsets, you could charge a Tesla at 40A and three Volts, no problem. Everyone wins. As an aside, I also think that lower capacity EV's (like the FFE and the Leaf) should standardize on 20 kW onboard charging. This would allow business to install "Fast charging" for a much lower cost then installing Level 3 that is only rated at 20-25kw. I attached a post I had from the FFE forums, as it seemed relevant.

    "With all the new releases of 25 kW and 20 kW Chademo stations, I've been thinking that the manufacturers should just give their vehicles 20 kW worth of on board chargers, just like the Tesla Model S. This would be a great move to making public fast charging a reality. With 20 kW of on board charging capability, businesses no longer need to invest in an expensive (at least $6,000) Level 3 charging station. They can instead purchase a Clippercreek CS-100 for $2,200, and add it with a simple 100 amp circuit breaker. These things are rock solid and extremely simple. The FFE, for instance, could charge from 0% to 80% in about an hour. Now, this isn’t supercharging fast, but it definitely makes a one stop charge trip doable. Plus, this caters to all EV’s. I really think this is a much more achievable goal. I think it’s ridiculous to be installing 20 kW Chademo stations. I really doubt Chademo will be the prevailing standard in 10 years. However, home charging with some variant of J1772 is likely to be here for the long haul. A 20 kW on board charger is not an intense design consideration. I would expect a $1,500 premium over our 6.6 kW chargers in the long run. "
     
  14. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    In all honesty if you have only one EVSE it should be a J1772 plug.

    I personally think you should install at least 2 EVSEs if you install any. In case of a failure you don't leave people stranded. And the added cost is almost all in the EVSE itself.

    I would probably take Tesla up on their discounted/free HPWC offer, but after I had already installed 2 J1772 EVSEs.


    If Tesla (or someone else) offered a TeslaPlug -> J1772 adapter. I would install the HPWC in a heartbeat, and buy a couple of adapters and chain them to the conduits supplying the HPWCs. Problems solved.
     
  15. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I think this a "it depends". If I'm staying overnight, I'd choose to use the 14-50 as I don't need a quick charge. If I'm just stopping to recharge, then I'd want the HPWC.

    I think there should be a mix: 1 or 2 HPWCs for transients. 8 or 10 14-50s for overnighters and non-Teslas that need a quick charge, and 25-30 120V for non-Teslas.
     
  16. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    #16 hcsharp, Sep 19, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
    You're absolutely right this will be the only way to handle the coming flood of EVs.

    I made a smart EVSE controller for my own garage and also made one for a small business with multiple chargers. A parking lot owner just contacted me to discuss making a custom controller for his EVSEs. I've heard of European Tesla owners who have done the same thing because many 3 phase residential services only allow 32A per phase. One person (in The Netherlands I think) told me his DIY EVSE monitors his high-amp appliances and adjusts the pilot to his Roadster accordingly. ChargePoint is also selling a smart EVSE with 2 chargers on one pedestal. It's a poor implementation though if you ask me.
     
  17. Mark Petersen

    Mark Petersen Model S EU P71

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    Hmm
    atleast Tesla did the right thing in Europe, modifying the Type 2 connector to support 135Kw
    as we do not need any adaptor when using a public AC charging station
    also a 22Kw charging station start around $1000
    and almos all public charging stations are 22Kw
    some of the old ones are 11Kw and some are even 44Kw
    so if we should all settle on the same connector the Tesla Type 2 connector would be the best choice
     
  18. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    #18 TonyWilliams, Sep 20, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2014
    If you put one J1772 plug on a single one of the two HPWC's, then one is dedicated to only Tesla vehicles, and the other can still be used by Tesla vehicles (with the supplied adapter in every Model S).

    Then, I'd put a few 20 amp / 120 volt outlets for the hybrids, etc. Of course, NEMA 14-50 outlets are good, too, but few hybrid owners will have an adaptor for that. I guess you could chain a 14-15P to 5-20R adapter nearby. Maybe chain up few other adapters, too.

    Here's my recommended adaptors that would plug into the NEMA 14-50R outlet(s):

    NEMA 6-50R
    NEMA 14-50R
    NEMA 14-30R
    NEMA 10-30R
    L14-30R
    L6-30R
    L6-20R
    NEMA 5-20 / 5-15

    In case somebody lost / forgot their Tesla adapter, you could probably chain up one of those, too.

    - - - Updated - - -


    "Hydra" is one version of a smart EVSE.
     
  19. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    That's a whole lotta chains! Maybe desk clerk could hold a $20 for each adapter loaned out.

    The 14-50 should be the default offering, and plenty of them.
    --
     
  20. KJD

    KJD Member

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    I voted for the HPWC even though I think there is a good case to be made for J1772.

    If the price were the same, I would have voted the other way.
     

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