High cost of charging according to TeslaFi?

[silverstoned83]

It tells us that having no regen at all does kind of hurt range because it forces always using the brake pads and is not able to recover anything when slowing down, so there is some level of warming up out of the extremely cold that helps that operation, but that doesn't extend without limit to using huge amounts of energy to get the battery really hot.

Agreed. This is all having to do with efficiency.

 

[Daks]

The Price Of Electricity In Your State.

This article is now 10 years old so take it with a grain of salt, but there seems to be a wild range in the cost of electricity across the country, from 8 cents per KWH in Idaho to 33 cents in Hawaii. Leaving Hawaii out for the time being as an outlier, NY is the next most expensive state at 18 cents. If I lived in Idaho, you would have a hard time convincing me that my electric car is just as expensive as my ICE.

Leave out Alaska as well... I pay .215 including all the taxes. BUT My ICE vehicles suck in the MPG too and they use electricity (block heater). I figure with CURRENT fuel prices here the break even for me should be around 25 mpg. And that's with today's fuel prices which are close to the cheapest I've seen since I moved here 7 years ago. They have been close to double at times too... My gas vehicles typically get 13-15 mpg.. However, if I had a prius at one point that got 50 mpg, it might be a cost shock.

I appreciate the author's insight into this. Before ordering my Y I figured on 333 wh/mi. For me it wasn't really a purchase to save money - but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't be significantly more either. My insurance dropped by $50 a month... Currently there are places in town I can charge for free, how long that lasts is anyone's guess... (No Level 3 near me YET) Also in my calculations, I use that 1000 watt block heater all night on a gas car so the car starts in the morning, so the vampire drain/battery keeping is going to be close to a wash in that area... Everyone's situation is different.

 

[mswlogo]

Understood. I am humbled by the universal disagreement in my opinion. Having said that, I would still like to share my reasoning.

When one tries to understand the total cost to own a vehicle, that should also include the understanding that every owner will have a different result, especially when it comes to energy usage. This will be influenced by several factors, such as: charging methods, usage of preconditioning, scheduled charging, sentry mode settings, outside air temp, average speed, dog mode, etc.. This fact is exaggerated by the fact that EV’s don’t involve much maintenance and are super efficient. For this reason, personally, I want to understand that which is universal across all MY’s, the driving efficiency. This is the logical approach from my perspective..

For example, when it comes to preconditioning energy usage, I’m surprised more isn’t said about the benefits of charging just prior to departing. Pro tip, you can get rid of the regen dots (or many of them) by simply scheduling your charge so that it completes just prior to departure. Doing so can reduce/eliminate the need to precondition the battery, depending on ambient temps of course. I see many wanting to know how to only precondition the battery, this is how I do it with our MY and i3.. and the best part is that it doesn’t use any additional power since it’s simply a result of charging. Does everyone do/know this, or care about it for that matter, I doubt it... It would be super useful to see just how much heat is added to the pack by only charging from 40-60%, but my experience with doing so suggests that a noticeable amount of heat is produced, even when charging between 7-12kW only.

In other words, don’t assume that your overall energy consumption will be universal since there will always be a significant amount of variance that is dependent on several variables, many of which involve the operator and their approach, and/or the environmental conditions. So why bother evaluating for anything other than having for your own records? I don’t see the value of sharing this information as if it will always be the same no matter who the operator is, that will not be the case.

It’s this thought process that causes people to be surprised when they see the real costs of EV. Like the OP. His added costs don’t surprise me a bit.

Charging in the morning to get rid of regen limitation dots is about the most wasteful thing you can do. That’s putting it really politely

Charge when your battery was last warm (as when you get back from work or from a trip). If you decide to wait until morning you are just tossing that heat in the battery away. And you’ll have to pay (again) to get it back.

Don’t precondition and don’t schedule charge with a frozen battery. Unless you need extra range for a trip or have an extremely long commute.

Tesla could report all battery consumption so customers could make wiser choices but Tesla knows they will be shocked.

With charging losses of only 8%, NOT including any battery heating and no preconditioning, no sentry. My Model X (which averages close to its EPA) cost about the same per mile as my 2017 Jeep did at 26 mpg with current gas prices ($2.25 /gal) and current electric rates in MA ($0.26 / kWh).

Luckily I can AFFORD solar, which equates to something like $0.08 / kWh.

And vampire drain, real vampire drain (not the sentry mode kind) is relatively low percent if you drive regularly. But if you drive once every 2 weeks (like with COVID WFH) it can be significant.

 

[silverstoned83]

Charging in the morning to get rid of regen limitation dots is about the most wasteful thing you can do. That’s putting it really politely

Charge when your battery was last warm (as when you get back from work or from a trip). If you decide to wait until morning you are just tossing that heat in the battery away. And you’ll have to pay (again) to get it back.

What’s the point of charging the battery when it was last warm? That makes no sense and will yield less heat in the pack if it will be several hours before departure after the charge completes.

Charging just prior to departure is the best way to maximize the heat in your pack, without even having to precondition it.

Since you’re using solar, likely in combination with a battery bank, it makes perfect sense that you would have such polarizing views on the use of preconditioning as it is taking away from your energy supplies that could instead be used to power your house and/or be sent back to the grid for compensation, therefore, increasing the difference in cost when preconditioning compared to a ‘standard use case.’

 

[mswlogo]

What’s the point of charging the battery when it was last warm? That makes no sense and will yield less heat in the pack if it will be several hours before departure.

Charging just prior to departure is the best way to maximize the heat in your pack, without even having to precondition it.

Since you’re using solar, likely in combination with a battery bank, it makes perfect sense that you would have such polarizing views on the use of preconditioning as it is taking away from you energy supplies that could instead be used to power your house and/or be sent back to the grid for compensation.

If your pack is already warm from a commute or trip it won't have to heat the pack to charge it, your juice goes into the battery at max efficiency. If you let the pack cool (and piss away that energy). You have to pay to put heat back into the battery before it can get back to max efficiency of charging.

The waste of throwing that heat (energy) away is greater than the energy you'll get back in regen.

As for preconditioning cabin, the earlier you start heating the cabin the sooner your paying for heat that will gets lost. So heat the cabin ONLY WHEN YOU ARE IN IT.

Regen is also not binary. And even with no regen, you have this other thing, it's called coasting. Coasting is more efficient than regen. But you can't obviously always 100% coast. Depends partly on your commute. You also rarely use 100% regen.

If you charge when your battery is warm (from natural byproducts of using the battery that you already paid for), heat the cabin when your in it and avoid braking as best you can with what ever regen you have. You will minimize total energy used.

There is no way the cost to heat the pack is cheaper than the little added regen you get out of it. The longer the drive the battery will naturally warm up (no need to rush it). The shorter the drive the less regen opportunity you have to take advantage of and that pack you pre-heated goes to waste, again when you park it at work. If you could preserve that heat, then it would be worth it. It takes a lot of watt hours to heat that pack. And every time that pack is cooling it's wasted energy.

The only place it might pay off is if you live on top of a mountain.

FYI, I don't have PowerWalls. But I and very conscious of watts used because I don't want to exceed what I produce (long term).

 

[Daks]

MSWLOGO -

I don't like that you can't turn off auto regen as I like to coast. I found it more efficient in our Volt and can't believe it won't be more efficient in a Tesla. But it is what it is.

I do live on top of a mountain and the only thing about preheating that I like (I know it's wasteful) is have you ever have to scrape off snow and ice in sub zero weather? Heating up the cabin makes that happen quicker/easier. I plug in as soon as I get home, let it charge up and then the car can decide what else it needs to do being plugged in. In the future I will be parking in a heated garage at home so this won't be as big an issue then... Granted, I am not looking to hypermile it either.

 

[mswlogo]

MSWLOGO -

I don't like that you can't turn off auto regen as I like to coast. I found it more efficient in our Volt and can't believe it won't be more efficient in a Tesla. But it is what it is.

I do live on top of a mountain and the only thing about preheating that I like (I know it's wasteful) is have you ever have to scrape off snow and ice in sub zero weather? Heating up the cabin makes that happen quicker/easier. I plug in as soon as I get home, let it charge up and then the car can decide what else it needs to do being plugged in. In the future I will be parking in a heated garage at home so this won't be as big an issue then... Granted, I am not looking to hypermile it either.

I agree, on the highway coasting can be more efficient than regen. As long as you are not hitting the brakes. It only works on the highway without to much traffic. But who has their foot on the throttle on the highway? I always have autopilot on. And it won’t let you “coast over” set speed (with regen on low or standard). So in the end it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference.

I also said I’d never want to own a Tesla without a garage in snow land. For the very reason you describe. But I assume your car isn’t iced over every day, is it? Well, Maybe it does on the top of a mountain. Top of a snow covered mountain with no garage and an EV = more trouble than it’s worth.

You certainly wouldn’t want low regen coming down the mountain. That would be crazy.

 

[rejedejo]

Correct. A more transparent way to say it is how much energy does it take to drive a given distance. That should not include everything that is involved when the car is parked because that will always be dependent on the user, the climate, and so many other factors... which can add up to be a substantial amount. The energy used when parked is irrelevant (to me) since I know that there is a price to pay for all of the energy consuming features that are included with Tesla’s... all of which are there as a benefit to the car/customer.

Personally, I am fine with the additional energy consumed when parked because I appreciate the convenience/security/BMS features and would much rather pay for the obvious additional energy usage and not let it distract from the true accomplishment, driving efficiency.

I live in the Ohio river valley and on our coal fired grid I'm getting about 22 mpg gasoline equivalent with my wall-to-wheels usage. I did better than that in my old gasoline car. A big part of the reason I bought this car is because I thought I was doing good. I'm kinda ashamed. What, am I using too much seat heater?

 

[jsight]

I live in the Ohio river valley and on our coal fired grid I'm getting about 22 mpg gasoline equivalent with my wall-to-wheels usage. I did better than that in my old gasoline car. A big part of the reason I bought this car is because I thought I was doing good. I'm kinda ashamed. What, am I using too much seat heater?

Is your energy pricing really high? >$.25 kWh?

 

[Terpslax]

I don't think my actual rate is too relevant for everyone else here. The point I want to drive home is owners often think about their MY as costing them 260 Wh/Mile, or 241 Wh/Mile in their M3. I think part of this comes from the Tesla Energy dash display where it shows your drive efficiency and owners are comparing that to the rated Wh/Mile. This is fine for driving efficiency but then that number is often used to translate it to a direct cost for the trip. Most posts or blogs talk about a trip costing them $x based on just that drive efficiency. Some even use that number and compare it to gas costs for ICE cars over those same miles which would is not a direct comparison.

The reality is it costs me closer to 366 Wh/Mile or really 422 Wh/Mile (when charging efficiency is taken into account) on my MY when taking into account charging and driving costs (despite a solid diving efficiency of 262 Wh/Mile). This is 41% or 62% more expensive in energy costs to charge and drive those miles than rated. If you don't pay for charging your car it's less relevant and only focusing on driving efficiency makes sense. For those that do (most of us) and are cost conscious, that number - "How much did my Tesla cost me on my electric bill to charge my car and drive those miles" - is something to be considered.

People report about Tesla making tweaks to improve the driving efficiency Wh/Mile. There is less talk about and improving efficiency of charging / sentry mode / pre-conditioning / keeping the battery warm / etc which based on my observation can have a huge impact on cost of ownership.

To answer your question directly, I pay .18 per kWh in NJ. It's not a great rate (but don't tell the unfortunate folks in CA I said that). After looking over my math, I'm looking to see if I can reduce my supply costs. My delivery costs are fixed at .05 per kWh.

Are you charging overnight at non peak hours? I’m on LI and PSEG is charging me .07 from 11am to 7am. Sounds like your electric company is screwing you.

 

[OxBrew]

TCO does not include energy cost to pre-heat when plugged in, when comparing to plugging in an electric engine heater on my Outback and Land Cruiser. Or Sentry mode, if not available on a car to be compared with.

Those are costs I choose to pay, separately from TCO. It's just too much work to try to compare apples to apples from ICE to EV.

And wow, the Tesla is ready to go in 15 min at 32°F. All my ICE cars took an hour or 2, and were not really warm, just startable. Whatever a warm car costs, I don't care, happy to pay it.

Don't get me started on remote start ICE. That's criminal.

 

[mycroftxxx]

And wow, the Tesla is ready to go in 15 min at 32°F. All my ICE cars took an hour or 2, and were not really warm, just startable. Whatever a warm car costs, I don't care, happy to pay it.

at 32 F, all the ICE cars I’ve ever owned - including one diesel - started up instantly as soon as I turned the key in the ignition (well, the diesel took 5 seconds for the glow plugs to warm the cylinders sufficient for it to start, but literally no longer than 5 seconds), when being parked outside in those temperatures overnight. Hell, I never had a block heater on any of my cars and there were at least three that I started in less than 15 seconds with no significant issues after they sat outside in temperatures down to -15 F. And once the car was running, I had decent cabin heat in less than 10 minutes. Your quoted statement above doesn’t make sense…

 

[BMWM3Man]

Interesting reading back in Jan 2021 where folks were saying $2.85 a gallon...those calculations are out the window now.

 

[OxBrew]

at 32 F, all the ICE cars I’ve ever owned - including one diesel - started up instantly as soon as I turned the key in the ignition (well, the diesel took 5 seconds for the glow plugs to warm the cylinders sufficient for it to start, but literally no longer than 5 seconds), when being parked outside in those temperatures overnight. Hell, I never had a block heater on any of my cars and there were at least three that I started in less than 15 seconds with no significant issues after they sat outside in temperatures down to -15 F. And once the car was running, I had decent cabin heat in less than 10 minutes. Your quoted statement above doesn’t make sense…

My 86 land cruiser would start down to 0F but run like crap all day. Got in the habit of plugging it in so it ran well from the get go. Then same for the outback. Was really just trying to eliminate increased wear during warm up. Had a 1.5kw heater, so cost me about 15 cents every time (plugged i. fir an hour). (pay 10 cents a kw).

Yeah, irrelevant mostly, but my point is, in both cases (ICE and EV) I was/am just doing it for the convenience, choosing to pay whatever it costs. I don't think it should factor into TCO comparisons, as it's really not needed for basic utility. They are add on optional luxury costs.

 

[P3dStealth]

Are you charging overnight at non peak hours? I’m on LI and PSEG is charging me .07 from 11am to 7am. Sounds like your electric company is screwing you.

Yea pseg claims they charge whatever per kWh but then after surcharges and delivery fees it comes out to about .23 now.

If you got the chargepoint charger it's 11pm to 6am and they give you .05 back per kWh quarterly.

I save no money owning a Tesla over my previous vehicle but I would buy it again because i like the car.

 

[Terpslax]

Yea pseg claims they charge whatever per kWh but then after surcharges and delivery fees it comes out to about .23 now.

If you got the chargepoint charger it's 11pm to 6am and they give you .05 back per kWh quarterly.

I save no money owning a Tesla over my previous vehicle but I would buy it again because i like the car.

That seems crazy. Here are the rates I pay…

 

[P3dStealth]

I live in the Ohio river valley and on our coal fired grid I'm getting about 22 mpg gasoline equivalent with my wall-to-wheels usage. I did better than that in my old gasoline car. A big part of the reason I bought this car is because I thought I was doing good. I'm kinda ashamed. What, am I using too much seat heater?

I can confirm this. People don't like to compare this way but what happens is my Tesla will consume energy just sitting in my garage or driveway. Especially when it gets cold out. The efficiency numbers everyone points out come from driving. The cost is at the wall though. Someone will always say preheat before you leave and yea that makes the drive seem more efficient but in reality it still used the energy.

 

[BMWM3Man]

Yea pseg claims they charge whatever per kWh but then after surcharges and delivery fees it comes out to about .23 now.

If you got the chargepoint charger it's 11pm to 6am and they give you .05 back per kWh quarterly.

I save no money owning a Tesla over my previous vehicle but I would buy it again because i like the car.

Wow I am polar opposite. I'd only buy one again b/c of the money we are saving. I mean it costs me like 3 bucks to charge overnight off peak and we've driven 2300 miles so like $30 to charge at home. Premium gas for same milage would be approx $345. Not to mention saving $100-200 a month not being charged for PeachPass Lane (Georgia) and if you believe "time is money" then the single person lane is priceless.

I don't even question the savings over a ICE especially ones that that Premium like our MB, BMW. Especially in the Summer Jun-Sept.

 

[P3dStealth]

View attachment 727903
That seems crazy. Here are the rates I pay…

Ignore the rates they claim on their website. Post a picture of your bill. The fees are sometimes more than the cost of the electric. You will see delivery service adjustment, revenue decoupling adjustment, fee from them never opening shoreram... Etc...

I live near you by the way. I have the same bill.

 

[P3dStealth]

In other words if you have pseg long island take your total bill including all charges and taxes and divide it by the per kWh used.

NY state wide average is attached but it's an average for the whole state.