Highway Range Ignorance

[bonnie]

Indeed, but I can refuel a plane in 20 minutes from touchdown to takeoff if I select the right airport. Until quick chargers are in place it's a little more complicated. I haven't lived it the way you have with the Roadster but hanging out at a campground for 2-3 hours to pick up another few hours driving is a bit of a drag.

I'm sure you stop in for a quick bite or cup of coffee, use the facilities, stretch your legs, etc. That 20 minutes from touchdown to takeoff is extremely rare. Possible, but unlikely.

Quick chargers are becoming a reality. I didn't have that luxury, but I did charge at every restaurant, get coffee while using a 70amp charger, plug into wimpy 110v for overnight while visiting family and and and.

Once I get rid of my ICE, if I have a real need to take a road trip along a route without charging options, I'll probably rent a vehicle. But when I look at my driving habits over the last several years, those situations are more a figment of 'OMG what if ... ' rather than reality. For me. Your situation may be different.

We have to also remember that the average joe is going to find that plotting out a course for every trip is a big negative of EVs. Not everyone has the patience or dedication. There's also the instances like the leaf driver that ran into out of service chargers.
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How often do you really take a new route/trip? I usually look up hotels anyway, so it doesn't seem like a big deal to add charging points. But again, it's not all that often that I'd need to do that. I have referenced my iPhone apps for charging points, especially when I'm in SF for the day - can't believe how many are popping up everywhere from just a year ago.

It's a bit of a leap to move to new technology. EVs may be too much of a leap for some, at least for now. And for others, their driving habits may mean they need to stick with an ICE until the infrastructure is fully in place.

 

[neroden]

I always plan my trip routes anyway, and I usually plan my hotels. It's nice to have room for variations and side trips, but it's not nice to find yourself 50 miles from the nearest gas station, restaurant, or hotel; the problems with electric car road trips are different merely in quantity, not in quality. I agree that people who don't like to do trip planning may not be ready to go to EVs yet, but a lot of us *do* pick our hotels in advance already.

Regarding driving habits: I know people drive 5-10 miles over the speed limit on expressways in upstate NY and PA, but if you stay in the right lane you can comfortably cruise at the speed limit plus or minus 5 mph, and people won't give you any trouble. It's not like the Midwest or California, where you can be practically forced to speed (I've driven Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and California, and people *will* tailgate you for going the speed limit). Wisconsin was the worst, actually; just after the national speed limit was removed, people started cruising at 90 mph. (Note that Wisconsin's speed limit was still 65!) Finally the cops came out in force and speeds went back down to 75, but seriously!

On four-lane rural roads, nobody in NY will give you *any* trouble for driving the 55 mph speed limit in the right lane. On two-lane rural roads, sometimes I just have to pull into a side road or driveway to let the speed demons by; it's not safe to drive 75 on those roads, but you will find that one guy doing it. In the dark. In the snow. With a blown headlight.

I'm getting an overspecified car so I really think *for me* it's not going to be an issue. The large battery with aero wheels should get me to Philadelphia or New York in one shot with range to spare, even if I do end up going over the speed limit for a while and get poor Wh/mi. I hardly ever even go that far. I've been scheming over trips to Michigan and Ohio, but those would require substantial, careful planning even if using a gas car, just to make sure the scheduling worked.

 

[Doug_G]

On four-lane rural roads, nobody in NY will give you *any* trouble for driving the 55 mph speed limit in the right lane.

I drive into NY once or twice a year. From what I've seen everyone drives within 5 mph of the speed limit, and speed traps are everywhere. I've even seen someone pulled over for talking on their cellphone (they have the same laws here, but I've never seen it actually happen). Strangely enough there doesn't seem to be nearly as much enforcement at night, and the traffic is faster.

I've also seen the exact same pattern in VT.

 

[neroden]

I drive into NY once or twice a year. From what I've seen everyone drives within 5 mph of the speed limit, and speed traps are everywhere. I've even seen someone pulled over for talking on their cellphone (they have the same laws here, but I've never seen it actually happen). Strangely enough there doesn't seem to be nearly as much enforcement at night, and the traffic is faster.

I've also seen the exact same pattern in VT.

Yep yep yep, sounds like my experience to a tee, including the faster driving at night.

 

[strider]

I think someone else posted this but whenever people ask me about this I point to the change from horses to cars. Back in the day gas stations were few and far between so you had to plan your route carefully. Now stations are ubiquitous so we don't think about it. EVs are the same way. If you want to be an early adopter then you have to put forth a little effort but to say that EVs are NEVER going to catch on because of lack of infrastructure is just as stupid as saying ICE's will NEVER catch on because of a lack of infrastructure.

 

[brianman]

I think someone else posted this but whenever people ask me about this I point to the change from horses to cars. Back in the day gas stations were few and far between so you had to plan your route carefully. Now stations are ubiquitous so we don't think about it. EVs are the same way. If you want to be an early adopter then you have to put forth a little effort but to say that EVs are NEVER going to catch on because of lack of infrastructure is just as stupid as saying ICE's will NEVER catch on because of a lack of infrastructure.

Actually, it's more stupid... since we have the historical example of gas stations showing it can be done.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Actually, it's more stupid... since we have the historical example of gas stations showing it can be done.

And because we already have the electricity infrastructure; we just need to install charge points. All much simpler than having to construct, from scratch, the equivalent of drilling rigs, pipelines, oil tankers, refineries, distribution pipelines/tankers, distribution storage facilities, gasoline trucks, and dedicated stations that the ICE requires. Everything's already done, except for adding a few plugs and, in some areas, making minor improvements to the distribution grid.

 

[Lyon]

And because we already have the electricity infrastructure; we just need to install charge points. All much simpler than having to construct, from scratch, the equivalent of drilling rigs, pipelines, oil tankers, refineries, distribution pipelines/tankers, distribution storage facilities, gasoline trucks, and dedicated stations that the ICE requires. Everything's already done, except for adding a few plugs and, in some areas, making minor improvements to the distribution grid.

Amen!

 

[PeterW]

Okay, I promise not to be "that guy" that responds to every post, but this is a great example.

Let's assume for argument's sake that Tesla decides that between Toronto and Montreal they need two Superchargers instead of one, because 542km / 336 miles needs two charge points approximately 180 km / 112 miles apart. So they locate one charger in Prescott, ON and another one in Belleville, ON (I've never been to Ontario but these look like good points on the map). So it's 112 miles from Prescott to Montreal and 112 miles from Belleville to Toronto.

If I purchase the 160 mile pack I am only going to get 112 miles at 120 km / 75 mph. So I've got to drive slower than highway speeds just to have some range on either end of my journey for the local portion. And then I've got to stop at each Supercharger for the full 60 minutes or more (depending on the charge rate). So best case scenario is I start with 100% charge - drive 2 hours - stop for 1 hour - drive for 2 hours - stop for 1 hour - drive for 2 hours - and finally charge again for local range or arrive at my overnight destination. Total trip time 8 hours+ compared to an ICE car at 4.5 hours on one tank of gas with lots of room to spare. And by the way, within a few years I will not be able to even do this do to lost battery capacity (unless you want to turn on your flashing hazard lights and go like 80 km/50 mph).

With a 60 kWh pack I could travel about 260 km / 160 miles at 120 km / 75 mph. So I can move at highway speeds between Superchargers BUT I cannot skip a Supercharger, I have to stop at every single one. If I want to drive at 55 mph then I should have just enough juice to skip one of the Superchargers but that is only when my pack is brand new. Once the pack is 6-9 years old I will have the bare minimum of capacity to make it between Superchargers while traveling at (near) highway speeds. So again, you're looking at a 6.5 - 7.5 hour journey compared to 4.5 in an ICE vehicle.

With the 85 kWh pack you can skip one Supercharger location while maintaining 120 km / 75 mph highway speeds but you cannot make it the whole way without stopping at least once to charge. So at a bare minimum you are adding mandatory 30-45 minutes to your trip time. Once 6-9 years have elapsed you will have to hit every Supercharger along the way (a mandatory 60-90 minutes) or you can revert back to slower speeds in order to stretch out your range. With the 85 kWh pack though you've paid over $12,000 more than a comparably equipped BMW 535i which is every bit as fast and nice and gets over 550 miles in range and takes 5 minutes to recharge.

You can see from this narrative that the 40 kWh packs are really not big enough to seriously consider for highway driving (other than your daily commute). The 60 kWh packs are big enough to start if you're willing to deal with with the hassle of frequent stops to recharge. The 85 kWh packs are the only ones that come close to supplying the freedom of the open road (and that unfortunately dissipates over time).

I love the Model S for what it is (the best EV on the planet by far) but it is not the car you pick for a major road trip.

I agree with what you said regarding the 40 and 60 kwh packs, they would not be suitable for long road trips.

I do have a few questions for you about the 85 kwh pack.

Do you really think that a 30min stop to recharge would be necessary?
I would not have thought that a supercharger would require any more than 15mins to recharge 112 miles and if you stopped at the 2nd location then 15mins would be plenty to take you the last 112 miles.

Does a BMW 535i really go over 550 miles on one tank?
I do not know for sure but this seems a long way to me.

Even if it can, would it go over 550 miles on one tank at 70-75 mph?
Apples to apples.

Lastly; can you really pull into a gas station, put say 12-15 gallons of gas in, pay, and leave in 5mins?
Even without having to wait in line?

 

[mnx]

I agree with what you said regarding the 40 and 60 kwh packs, they would not be suitable for long road trips.

I do have a few questions for you about the 85 kwh pack.

Do you really think that a 30min stop to recharge would be necessary?
I would not have thought that a supercharger would require any more than 15mins to recharge 112 miles and if you stopped at the 2nd location then 15mins would be plenty to take you the last 112 miles.

Does a BMW 535i really go over 550 miles on one tank?
I do not know for sure but this seems a long way to me.

Even if it can, would it go over 550 miles on one tank at 70-75 mph?
Apples to apples.

Lastly; can you really pull into a gas station, put say 12-15 gallons of gas in, pay, and leave in 5mins?
Even without having to wait in line?

I'll answer a couple of those. You can for sure fill up a car in <5 minutes if you pay at the pump with a credit card. I timed it once because there were naysayers on this forum.

I seriously doubt a 535 gets 550 miles on a tank.... My 335d can maybe go ~ 600 miles @ 120km/h.

 

[JohnQ]

I think about this from an optimization standpoint. If I have to drive 300 miles between CT and DC I have a few choices. I can travel 55mph or so with an 85kWh pack and nurse it into the hotel (assumes 300 mi at 55mph). Note that this is below the posted speed limit along a fair portion of the route. Or, I can drive more quickly and stop for a quick charge. Ignoring all other factors (line for the charge, time to exit and enter the highway, etc), there is some optimal speed for this trip taking into account the power consumption curve and recharge time. While I don't have a desire to calculate the numbers right now I'm sure I'll do so at some point to understand how to approach a trip like that.

 

[Dave EV]

Does a BMW 535i really go over 550 miles on one tank?
I do not know for sure but this seems a long way to me.

Even if it can, would it go over 550 miles on one tank at 70-75 mph?

It has a 18.5 gallon tank - probably can't use all of it, but let's say you can fill it up with 17.5 gallons from empty. EPA rates it at 31 mpg highway which is typically pretty accurate at a constant 70 mph. So 17.5 * 31 = 542.5 miles.

 

[brianman]

I would call drees' math optimistic:
- "EPA rates it at 31mpg...accurate at constant 70mph": I thought the EPA numbers were at 55 not 75, and were generally regarded as in a vacuum with perfect weather on a frictionless flat road kind of thing (aka fantasy)
- constant 70 mph: show me any stretch of road that's 550 miles where I can go 70mph unimpeded, and I'm taking a road trip
- 70mph vs. 70-75mph: if we do any more than exactly 70 the numbers adjust

Even with that, he calculates 542.5 miles which is less than "over 550".

So, to PeterW, "no, it wouldn't."

 

[Dave EV]

- "EPA rates it at 31mpg...accurate at constant 70mph": I thought the EPA numbers were at 55 not 75, and were generally regarded as in a vacuum with perfect weather on a frictionless flat road kind of thing (aka fantasy)

Please do some research on EPA fuel economy testing before you call my numbers a fantasy.

 

[brianman]

For the record, I was calling the EPA data fantasy. Relax.

Please do some research on EPA fuel economy testing before you call my numbers a fantasy.

Random web search...
- 28mpg not 31mpg: Fuel Economy of the 2011 BMW 535i
- highway test doesn't go above 60mph: Detailed Test Information

I'd be happy to have more faith in the EPA numbers but, frankly, I don't. If any vehicle I drive gets 2/3rd of the EPA rating on mileage I consider that par for the course.

 

[Robert.Boston]

I think about this from an optimization standpoint. If I have to drive 300 miles between CT and DC I have a few choices. I can travel 55mph or so with an 85kWh pack and nurse it into the hotel (assumes 300 mi at 55mph). Note that this is below the posted speed limit along a fair portion of the route. Or, I can drive more quickly and stop for a quick charge. Ignoring all other factors (line for the charge, time to exit and enter the highway, etc), there is some optimal speed for this trip taking into account the power consumption curve and recharge time. While I don't have a desire to calculate the numbers right now I'm sure I'll do so at some point to understand how to approach a trip like that.

Because you're driving I-95, you'll have access to SuperChargers. Therefore, the likely optimal will simply to be drive with the traffic flow, stop at a SuperCharger site for a refreshment break (that's about a 6-hour drive, so you'll want one anyway), recharge yourself and the car, and then go on to DC.

 

[mnx]

I thought the new EPA tests are fairly accurate and also fairly easy to beat if you drive lightly. FYI They have a high speed test where they run the car up to 80mph and use more aggressive acceleration and braking.

Detailed Test Information

For the record, I was calling the EPA data fantasy. Relax.




Random web search...
- 28mpg not 31mpg: Fuel Economy of the 2011 BMW 535i
- highway test doesn't go above 60mph: Detailed Test Information

I'd be happy to have more faith in the EPA numbers but, frankly, I don't. If any vehicle I drive gets 2/3rd of the EPA rating on mileage I consider that par for the course.

 

[brianman]

I thought the new EPA tests are fairly accurate and also fairly easy to beat if you drive lightly. FYI They have a high speed test where they run the car up to 80mph and use more aggressive acceleration and braking.

Perhaps the 2008 adjustments made things better. I would presume they would apply to vehicles for model year 2010...

On a sunny day, my 2010 vehicle set at 55mph on cruise control and no additional passengers doesn't reach the EPA highway rating. It gets about 3/4 IIRC. I'll try it again to see if maybe the car needed breaking in or somesuch.

 

[brianman]

Don't think you meant that for me

Derp. Corrected.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I thought the new EPA tests are fairly accurate and also fairly easy to beat if you drive lightly. FYI They have a high speed test where they run the car up to 80mph and use more aggressive acceleration and braking.

Detailed Test Information

The average speed of that test (US06) is still only 48.37mph. If you look at the actual test cycle only 92 seconds out of the 600 second test is at or above 70mph (so 15.3% or less than 1/6 of it is above 70mph):
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/us06col.txt
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/testing/dynamometer.htm

Add that fact that they take the normal highway test as a baseline (which never goes above 60mph and also has an average speed of 48.3mph) before using the US06 to "adjust" it, it becomes pretty clear the testing cycle overall is far from simulating a 70mph average speed.

Now, it is still possible for a 70mph trip in an ICE car to average out to the same as the EPA number (depending specifically on the how the efficiency of your engine is at various RPMs and on how your car is geared at 70mph), but that is definitely not the general case.

In any case, for the 535i, I get 28mpg x 18.5 gal = 518 miles. So you can claim 500+ miles at highway speeds (what speed exactly is unknown). But I think arguing over this is pointless. There is a certain amount of miles where the total range is relatively insignificant because it is "good enough" already (how many 535i owners will run their tanks to empty on a single trip?). I think ~200 miles is "good enough" for a good amount of of people, ~300 miles even more, ~400 miles pretty much everyone already. The only people who may want more are frequent road trippers.