You are in Texas. parts cost aside, I am betting the cost would be at least 3k out here for any electrician to do that work, just about anywhere in california.
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Home Charging in an Old Home
- Thread starter randynotcandy
- Start date
You are in Texas. parts cost aside, I am betting the cost would be at least 3k out here for any electrician to do that work, just about anywhere in california.
saltsman
Member
Everything I see says $100/hr for LA.
Cost of Residential Electrical Contractors in Los Angeles, California
$94.85 per hour (plus parts and materials) (Range: $84.89 - $104.80)
Even at a full day you are at $800.$94.85 per hour (plus parts and materials) (Range: $84.89 - $104.80)
Permitting is $92 (LADBS)
Fully NFPA 70 compliant system with whole home surge suppressor, shipped to home - $626
I understand, but I just don't see how they would arrive at that cost.
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RayK
Active Member
You forgot to include California Tesla Tax.
Aphinity
Hydro power is best!
@saltsman some of the best answers I've ever seen to this kind of question. Thanks for your awesome knowledge share.
Is it wrong to suggest wiring a 14-50 outlet (or even 14-30) on the same breaker as the stove, and just ensure the car only charges at night? I know it's risking a breaker trip if you forget, but perhaps that would skip the need for a full panel replacement?
Is it wrong to suggest wiring a 14-50 outlet (or even 14-30) on the same breaker as the stove, and just ensure the car only charges at night? I know it's risking a breaker trip if you forget, but perhaps that would skip the need for a full panel replacement?
Here is a quote someone in belmont just posted. Its upgrading service to 200amp, and we are not there to see what is actually required, but I have a feeling you might know more than I do about that. In any case, take a look at the quote this person got in the thread below, and then let me know if you still think the OP in this thread should be able to get the work needed (in Los Angeles), for "1k or so).
I think that people dont realize the upcharge on things out here in CA... especially when they are somplace like texas where many things are "inexpensive" comparatively.
For example. I would imagine that the average californian is paying electrical service rates on a Time of Use plan, with an EV, of off - peak around 12-14 cents a kWh, to on peak (4pm to 9pm) somewhere between 40 and 55 cents a kWh. Its my understanding that in texas, "expensive" electricity is 15 cents a kWh, but I dont live there, so could be wrong on that.
Installation of 14-50 outlet and upgrade house electrical system to 200 AMP from 100 AMP
From what I've seen in the bay area, as soon as the utility/city has to be involved the costs jumps a lot because so much time has be allocated for coordination. For example the permit and time for a water heater install would have been over $800. I told them I'll pull the permit myself and meet the inspector. First main panel I had done (it was Zinsco panel) the electrician was comfortable doing the utility disconnect himself. Didn't have to coordinate/wait, saved me money. That was about 20 years ago, don't know if they still do that. When Tesla had to replace that panel because it wouldn't work for a powerwall install it was more involved. We had a day where utility was a no show so the electrician could only do a limited amount of work. Basically time wasted. I felt like I got a great deal on that panel upgrade because it priced flat so Tesla had to absorb that delay. They also raised the panel upgrade costs in their contracts at the time of install, tried to make apply to mine but I pointed out that I had a signed and executed contract which they honored.
I'm in the process of getting a panel upgrade on a rental property. The electrician is waiting for PG&E to schedule the work. This one isn't going to be cheap (thankfully I'm getting a little subsidy from Silicon Valley Clean Energy to encourage upgrades to push houses to all electric).
I think @saltsman has a good base effort only cost estimate (although man if I could get electricians for $100/hour here I would be so happy). I think it is quite plausible for a straight replacement since there aren't a lot of circuits and panel presumably won't be relocated wire length won't be an issue.
I'm in the process of getting a panel upgrade on a rental property. The electrician is waiting for PG&E to schedule the work. This one isn't going to be cheap (thankfully I'm getting a little subsidy from Silicon Valley Clean Energy to encourage upgrades to push houses to all electric).
I think @saltsman has a good base effort only cost estimate (although man if I could get electricians for $100/hour here I would be so happy). I think it is quite plausible for a straight replacement since there aren't a lot of circuits and panel presumably won't be relocated wire length won't be an issue.
Here are electric car charging guidelines and and service load calculation form. https://www.menlopark.org/DocumentC...ential-Electric-Vehicle-EV-Charger-Guidelines
saltsman
Member
There's a lot to unpack in such a short question
. Disclaimer:
I'm not a licensed electrician - just a random internet person who knows a little something about the NEC and basic residential electrical design. Don't rely on this as gospel without talking to someone who is an actual authority.
The code answer:
NEC 310-16 requires a properly designed circuit should never get exceed 80% of the rated load. Assuming the original circuit was designed to just match the stove load only (as most would be), such as setup would not be allowed under the NEC as the existing circuit would be undersized for the potential load (Stove + EVSE).
Even if you say "I'll just charge at night", both devices are still able to be in use at the same time, which would exceed the 80% rule (by a lot) and that is a no-no. Now, if for example, if you had a switch that only allowed one devise to be used at a time, that should be ok - assuming that you followed all the other code requirements for a branching circuit (one wire per breaker, multi-wire circuit requirements, etc). Practically, it would almost always be easier, safer, and cheaper to just add a separate circuit, but that might be difficult in a rental, etc.
The logical answer:
The purpose of breaker is to act as the final failsafe before an overcurrent event leads to catastrophic failure (fire, electrocution, etc). A properly designed circuit should never be at risk of tripping. A firearm also has a safety. Just because it does, doesn't mean you should point a loaded gun at your head (or anyone else's) and try to pull the trigger assuming the safety will save you. Breakers can and do fail. Thankfully they don't fail often, but don't temp fate. If you need further convincing, search "circuit breaker failure" on Google image search. It's just not worth the risk.
saltsman
Member
That looks high to me. Bottom line, it is impossible to tell without an itemized list of parts and labor. While this looks itemized, it's basically written in such a way to hide what exactly is being quoted. It's also hard to know what the capacity of the existing service riser might be or what shape it is in. My hunch is this quote is a blanket replacement of everything regardless if it needs to be replace or not. For example, does the ground rod really need to be replaced? That is really rare - but it might need to be - or not.
Parts cost what parts cost. Square-D QO series will be more expensive than Square-D Homeline. Are they quoting dual function CAFCI-GFCI breakers (~$50 retail) or standard (~$5 retail). I'm absolutely ok with the company adding a markup on the parts, but I can't imagine any configuration of a residential panel that would exceed $3500 in parts - even with a 100% markup.
Labor cost what labor cost. Do they estimate this take 3 hours or 300 hours? Also remember there is a heavy delta already built-in between what an electrician makes ($35/hr) and what the company charges ($100/hr).
Some installs require a lot of work... but this looks suspect to me.
My advice would be to get an actual itemized listing and competitive bids from at least three companies. Look for the difference and ask why this over that...
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Edit to answer your other question: Yes, I still think that property owner in this post should be able to get the old Zinsco panel swapped to a newer panel for ~$1,000 and with the addition of a NEMA 14-50 (adjacent to the panel) for an attentional $250. The one caveat is permitting and inspection. Sometimes when you pull the permit, the inspector will want everything in the house brought up to code... or the utility company will no-show... or the paperwork gets lost and has to be tracked down.
We own eight rental properties (all which had the dangerous FPE Stab-Lok breakers). I oversee the work on them (or do it myself when appropriate). I'm comfortable purchasing the parts and puling the permits. We have good relationships with our contractors and pay them by the hour for whatever is needed.
I have no idea how the OP's property owner goes about repairs, but I feel an involved property owner (or empower tenant) would be able to get this done for $1,000 with local licensed electrician doing all the electrical work. It's not that involved of a task when you get down to the actual work.
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Putting AFCIs in older homes isn’t required and it probably shouldn’t be done. As far as upgrading 100-200amps in va assuming everything is simple 2450... could go higher though.
I would imagine LA would have higher rates than VA and my rates are $125/hr but i wouldn’t charge by the hour for a panel.
But if you do the math:
800 in labor, times two people is 1600.
Then the permit they up charge you for is $200.
plus the hour of their time to pull it is $100.
Then they charge you double for the panel $1200.
now you are at $3100.... they aren’t going to sell you a panel at cost...
saltsman
Member
That's still far less than the $4K number that was being suggested.
Standard Square-D Homeline box and breakers as quoted above - $174.79. 100% markup = $350
My estimate from what I saw in original picture would take one person two to three hours. I can't see two guys needed (there isn't any space for two guys to work on a panel). Even at a full day at the VA rate of $125 that's still just $1,000.
Add the permit you are at $1,500...
I'm not speaking from experience in LA. I'm only suggesting that on a fully itemized quote, I can't see how it would go near that $4K number without some serious padding. And the numbers quoted above are already counting the profit in the parts markup and labor markup (The average salary for a journeyman electrician in LA with 2 to 3 years of experience, Bachelor Degree, and 3 selected qualifications is $30.56 per hour.)
Just my $0.02. Hope it helps someone negotiate a better price.
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There is certainly enough work for two people.., gotta drive ground rods, cold water ground, intersystem bonding, labeling, etc. You need an extra set of hands to work the wires into the new panel.... you are suggesting that contractors use cost to determine price, which is of course a fallacy.
saltsman
Member
That's fair if it's needed. I'm making a LOT of assumptions from a single photo. I can't see the need for a need for a new ground rod but I'm not on site.
And yes, contractors don't want to use cost to determine price, but as savvy property owner you should require it -- or keep looking to find someone who will. Even the service department at an auto dealership has to justify their cost on a parts and labor basis (and they are the worst at inflating costs).
On a side note: This panel has a total of 13 circuits, only one of which is larger than 12 AWG. It's an easy job for one guy, but whatever...
Dmagyar
Member
Planet earth. With the right insulation (THHN) in the right pathway (a conduit of sufficient size): Ampacity Charts - Cerrowire
RedModel3
Member
To reiterate what others have said - you are in Texas. The same work would be much more expensive here, and I know that from experience as well. I do agree 100% that it sounds like the house that the OP is renting is in desperate need of repair and maintenance.
RedModel3
Member
If panel is fire risk, tell landlord (as others have suggested). You may sweeten the pot by offering 1/4 or 1/2 of the replacement cost and have a 240v with 50 or 100 amp included.
@qdeathstar is an electrician, although not in CA. What a journeyman electrician makes per hour isnt relevant to what is charged (you mentioned that youself). Either the electrician works for a company and makes whatever he makes, but the company makes what it charges.... or the electrician is his own company and makes what he charges after he pays out his expenses.... in both cases the person is charged the same.
Also, I mentioned earlier:
So that sounds right in line with what I was thinking, which is not 1k. It sounds like I am trying to ring this OP up for a bunch of stuff, which I am not, and I totally realize you are wanting to help. I also think that it would be a good idea for the person to get quotes (after getting homeowner approval).
What I am trying to prevent from happening, however, is the OP in this thread reading your "it should cost 1k" and going with that number, or anything close to it, to the homeowner. Or, reading your "1k" number, then wondering why when they call an electrician, they get 3 quotes and they are 2900 to 4200, and thinking "Everyone is a crook, I read on the internet this should be 1k".
You are obviously knowledgeable about the topic, and are trying to help, so I am not arguing with you on that. I just dont want this OP getting an (for los angeles) unreasonable number stuck in their head because someone from another state on the internet says "it should cost this". Thats all I am saying, and sorry if I sound combative, I am actually also trying to help the OP not go through a bunch of feeling ripped off emotions when they get actual quotes on it.
