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Home electrical issue

Discussion in 'Roadster: Technical' started by hlivkopj, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. hlivkopj

    hlivkopj Member

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    Urbandale, IA
    About 8 months ago I acquired a 2008 roadster (I’m the second owner) and have been using the 110v plug.

    I’m finally getting around to having an electrician estimate hooking up the roadster High Power Wall Connector that requires 90amps.

    The electrician is concerned about running that amount of amps (90) + I have a Model S already that’s 50amps + Air Conditioner + Electric Washer and Dryer + normal other house consumption....

    House limits 220amps from the electrical company line in and the breaker is built for that or will start protecting itself just before that point is reached.

    Has anyone with a Roadster and Model S come up against this issue when trying to charge both and what did you do?

    Options:
    1. Run the 90amps but don’t plug in both cars same time
    2. Run a 50amp and buy a CAN Sr., hookup to an additional model S cord
    3. Is it possible to run less than 90amps to the High Power Wall Connector, seems no??
    4. Run the 90 amps but add a digital timer so the High Power Wall Connector is only receiving power at certain times then program my Model S for the opposite times.
    5. Spend $$$$$ to have the electrical company run more power to the house and upgrade my entire breaker.
    6. Don’t worry about the additional 90amps as it’ll only pull 70 and isn’t an issue.
    7. Other ideas?

    Thanks!
    Paul
     
  2. gregd

    gregd Active Member

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    If you've been getting by with just the 120v outlet, even just getting to 240v at any current will be a big step up. Is there a need to go to the full 70 amps charging?

    After a few years sharing the dryer's 30 amp outlet, I upgraded to a 14-50 outlet, an OpenEVSE "charger", and a J1772 to Roadster adapter (I have Tesla's original model, but the CAN-JR is good too). I still limit the current to 24 amps, just to be nice, but everything is sized to run the full 40 amps (80% of 50). I think I've used the higher current maybe once, and then only because it was handy.

    My choice of outlet and equipment was intended to maximize options down the road, including when my daughter eventually gets her Model 3 and comes to visit.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. X.l.r.8

    X.l.r.8 Supporting Member

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    the HPWC is adjustable as in you can adjust the pilot to only deliver certain amps. also you can dial down the amps using the display screen from the roadster. as mentioned going from 110v to 240v will allow you increased charging and most people get by happily with the 240v 40 amp Mobile charger either on open EVSE type unit or a HPWC.
    1. running 1 HPWC with 100 amps and a can sr will take care of charging both cars very quickly.
    2. you can do that with more power.
    3. you can run 50 amps as long as the signal is set to so it wont allow the car to pull more power.
    4. That works and all the above have the problem of having to move the cars if the cable does not reach.
    5. Yikes
    6. not a wise assumption. someone may forget to dial back the amps.
    7. 2 circuits. one 240v 50 amp for your S, one 240v 50 amp for your roadster. find a compatibility/budget to suit all your needs. an open evse will draw 40 amps, and with a tesla plug you just need a can Sr. then if you have a hpwc on the other wall you can choose to set it to 50 amps and again you can swap around.
    Its probably cheaper to run 2, 8 awg with 40 amp chargers than a huge 100 amp circuit. or even 6 awg if you want to run 55 amps. most people are comfortable running 8 awg to a 14-50 socket, then putting a 40 amp breaker which automatically de rates it to 32 amps.
    Do you really want the HPWC at 90 amps, if not just run 6 awg and set it to 50 amps, the options are endless usually your charging speed is the only deciding factor. You could have an open evse plugged into a 40 amp circuit (I only use that unit as its super cheap and durable, a tesla UMC 240 would work just as well and I believe they are pretty cheap to buy), and then the 60 amp circuit for the model S and again a can Sr will allow you to charge either car from either circuit. That way you have a slower charger and a faster one that you can decide what works for what.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I would install full power options but set the cars to use much less. For example my Roadster can charge at 64 amps but my normal charge is 24. Maybe once or twice a year I need the fast rate and I have it. So daily you are easy on the house, grid and car. But if you need it you have it.
     
  5. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    If you have the service, and the wire run is not too long, I would install it as usual (full 90A), but set the car to a reasonable limit (perhaps 32A). For overnight charging (even completely empty -> full), you really don't need anything else. On the rare occasions when you do, you can just increase the limit in the car and make sure you don't charge the other car at the same time.
     
  6. gregd

    gregd Active Member

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    I think, by electrical code, you need to have everything sized such that you won't have an issue if both cars are charged at the same time. If that forces a service or panel upgrade (expensive), then I'd back down to a 50 amp connection for the Roadster (e.g. a 14-50 outlet).

    I ended up with a panel upgrade when I added my 14-50, but that was because the existing 125 amp panel was full, and it was an older brand that is known to "fail" (as in "catch fire"). With that second issue, the panel swap needed to happen regardless. So, we moved to a 200 amp panel, and the car's outlet was essentially free (I provided the extra labor to run the wires).
     
  7. rudholm

    rudholm Member

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    How about installing two HPCs (the new ones, sold for Models S/X/3) on a single 100A circuit? You can put up to four of them on a single circuit and they will apportion the amps as needed, making 80A available if only one car is connected, but then splitting that to offer 40A to each car if you connect two cars. When one of the two connected cars is full, the other HPC will again offer 80A to the car that is still charging. Basically, it does what you want. You'll just have to use a CAN-SR for the Roadster.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. hlivkopj

    hlivkopj Member

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    Thanks everyone! Going to install the full set of Amps to the HPWC and throttle it in both my Model S and Roadster car settings.
     
  9. dgh

    dgh Member

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    #9 dgh, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
    Depending on which Roadster HPC (sounds like you acquired it with the your 2008 Roadster, meaning it should be a 1.5), you have either the Tesla build HPC or the Clipper Creek (Tesla branded) HPC. Both can be tuned down to 24 amps, so that they only require 30 amps on its own 230 volt circuit. (Electrical codes dictate that any device that could be used for more than three hours be connected to a circuit that is 125% higher amperage than what is drawn.) This should deliver better than 20 miles per hour pf charge, which is more than enough for all but daily drivers with long commutes. It is NOT recommended that you rely on your VDS charger screen to limit to 24A, as lots of things can happen that can have it go off that setting that can cause bad things to happen (fire, battery and/or charger damage, etc). The chances that one careless incident (such as connecting your Roadster to another charger) could cause the setting to change.

    The Tesla build HPC has a dial inside its cabinet you can use to limit it to drawing 24A (as well as several other settings all the way up to 70A). This should ONLY be used with early Roadsters (1.5). Top picture.

    The Clipper Creek built HPC has to be re-programed. Clipper Creek offers assistants for this at very low cost. Bottom picture.

    Clipper Creek started to initially be the OEM suppler of Roadster HPC at the end of 2008. The Clipper Creek is generally considered more reliable and less buggy. For anyone other than the OP reading this that might have a 2.0, 2.5, and a 3.0, that has the original Tesla built HPC, IMHO, you should consider selling it and finding another solution, such as the CAN Senior that you can use with your Model S/X/3 HPWC.

    TeslaHPC.jpg ClipperCreek.jpg
     
    • Informative x 1
  10. slcasner

    slcasner Member

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    I have an early Roadster (VIN #33) and the Tesla-built HPC has been working fine without any problems since the car was delivered on Halloween, 2008, so I would not consider it buggy or unreliable. And, it does have the benefit of connection to a smoke detector that was provided with it to stop charging in case of fire. :)

    Your warning is worth heeding, though, because some 2.x cars will fail to charge on one of these HPCs because of a perceived ground fault.
     
    • Informative x 1
  11. dgh

    dgh Member

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    Thanks for clarifying. The original Tesla built HPC is a good match for older (2008, and perhaps some early 2009 1.5 Roadsters). The "issues" seem to only surface when this charger is used with 2.x cars.
     
  12. hlivkopj

    hlivkopj Member

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    I have the Clipper Creek. The plan right now is to run 70amp to it and then just change my setting in the 08 Roadster to pull down 24 or so. If I do that, do I need to reprogram the Clipper too?
     
  13. dgh

    dgh Member

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    #13 dgh, Jul 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
    I would highly suggest you get it re-programmed to 24A. The VDS can get reset to a different charge level many different ways unintentionally. I assume your plan is to keep the car a long time, it be a shame if you end up overlooking getting it reprogrammed and a glitch down the road has the Roadster try to draw more power than can be safely drawn on the circuit that your HPC is connected to. As an early Roadster, (I'd say really any Roadster) owner you want to eliminate any point of failure/trouble you can. Clipper Creek makes it pretty easy, and at a very modest cost.

    One thing worth noting, if you are concerned about alternating the charger from its original specifications having a negative impact on the collectability of your Roadster, the modification is limited to re-flashing its firmware. Completely reversible should you want the firmware reset to 70A. As with any work you do related to your Roadster, keep your receipt and correspondences for any work you do on the car (including from the electrician that upgrades the power at your home and installs the HPC). While no one can say for sure what a future buyer will think is important and adds value to the car, every bit of documentation you have helps add to the providence of the Roadster and conveys the story that you took great care of the car over the years.

    Two ways you can get the firmware re-programmed, both pretty low cost. Contact Clipper Creek for details, or if you like, send me a PM about my experience.

    1) Request that they send you a programer. Small device that you just pay the shipping and handling on (no rental fee). The charger has to be energized to do this, so while the cheaper way, not the option I'd choose if its not yet installed.

    2) Remove a board inside the unit and send it to Clipper Creek. Shipping costs will be higher, and Clipper Creek will charge a modest service fee to do the re-programing and test it out, but consider how far out of warranty the charger is, quite reasonable.

    I called (530) 887-1674, but you can also contact them via their website, clippercreek.com Start off by asking for tech support, then explain that you have one of their old chargers for the Tesla Roadster.
     
  14. dgh

    dgh Member

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    When you say you will "run 70 amp to it", if this means the amount of amperage on the circuit, then that is not so bad (but you really should run 90 A, which give you the 25% over spec over the HPC max draw of 70 amp).

    When I wrote my prior post, I interpreted it it to mean that your HPC would be connected to something lower than a 90 A service, in which case I'd strongly advised not relying on the VDS to limit its drawing amperage to 24A prior to modification. You had your Roadster for 8 months, so while it is the summer months, continuing using the mobile connector I presume came with your car until the firmware can be re-flashed on your charger to limit it to 24A is highly suggested. Henry Sharp (hcsharp on TMC), the inventor of the CAN is aware of multiple incidents of really bad things happening when people relied on the VDS to throttle to power to 24A only to have some anomaly cause the Roadster to try to draw more than 24A on an HPC that was not connected to a suitable (90A) service.
     
  15. hlivkopj

    hlivkopj Member

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    Im running a 90amp to it, I should have been more clear. Decided that after the first few responses on here.

    My mobile connnector GFI keeps tripping so can’t charge right now at all. :). I think it’s the age of the connector causing it. Procrastinated on the HPWC for 8 months, now need it installed.
     
  16. rudholm

    rudholm Member

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    If you're talking about the 120V yellow cord, you can just pop open the plug and bypass the GFI or just replace the plug with a regular one from the hardware store. It's a known problem with those that the GFI goes out.
     

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