Home EV charging in apartment block complex carparks

[sonywong]

Hi, I also live in Happy Valley and just ordered a Model S. Do you have the link of the article by the newspaper? or the do u know the date they published it? thanks.

I have been fighting with the OC of Leighton Hill in Happy Valley for almost 2 years and still no luck. This little OC party won't even bother to see me or EMSD face to face to discuss for any possibility of installation. Lately, I have been interviewed by the Hong Kong Economic Times, hopefully it will stir up some discussion.

I couldn't understand why being an owner of an apartment property that I am living in would not have no right to install a power point!! I don't see why I have no choice of choosing to drive an electric car because of these idiotic OC of apartment buildings.

The HKSAR and EB are doing so much to promote the use of EVs in HK, which is a great thing and HK is one of the most suitable place for EV. I hope the new Chief Executive would agree to provide some incentive to apartment, say discount in electricity for those that install charging stations.

 

[markwj]

I've spent so long looking at this, examining incentives, legislation covering 'selling' of electricity, easements (right of way), deeds of mutual covenants, as well as a bunch of other options. In the end, the only solution I see as workable for Hong Kong is the one that states in the USA are adopting. Specific legislation to give owners of car parks the right to install their own charging station. Making it illegal for management / ownership corporations to block such installations, even crossing common areas.

Nothing else, that I can see (and I've been banging my head against this particular wall for more than 12 months now), works.

Here's what I just wrote to Mr KS Wong, the Secretary of the Environment:

I understand the government's hard work in promoting the adoption and use of Electric Vehicles in Hong Kong, and the positive effect that such adoption can have on our environment. However, the single biggest issue affecting such adoption is where to charge these Electric Vehicles. I own and drive an Electric Vehicle in Hong Kong and am well aware of the issues surrounding this.

The recent deployment of 1,000 charging stations in shopping centre car parks and government offices goes some way to address the issue. But, the 10km additional range per hour that 220V 13A gives is quite simply insufficient, unless the vehicle can charge for most of the day/night - which is not practical for a short shopping visit. The alternative solution of deploying CHAdeMO fast chargers is too costly and quite frankly the wrong solution for the majority of private vehicle users.

The answer comes from looking at where vehicle owners leave their vehicles standing idle for the majority of the time. In almost all cases that is either at home or office car parks. Charging at such locations, even with a simple 220V 13A socket for 8 to 10 hours, makes excellent economic sense and would be a perfect solution for all the owners I speak to. 10 hours at 220V 13A results in approximately 100km of additional range for most electric vehicles.

However, when owners (or prospective owners) approach their office / home management association to get approval to install a simple 220V 13A socket, their applications are simply denied. The management / home ownership corporations have no incentive to support such installations - they only see the risks and extra work involved.

While I understand that government has made some progress and enacted legislation to address this issue for new buildings, the problem affecting the vast majority of owners is with existing buildings.

Looking at the situation in USA, where they have the most experience and success with incentivising the adoption of electric vehicles, we find that more and more states are enacting legislation to make it illegal for a home ownership organisation to reject / block the deployments of electric vehicle charging stations in owner's car parks. For example, California enacted statute 1353.9 (see http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1352-1353.9) in 2012, and Oregon has this summer enacted HB3301 (see HB 3301 :: Oregon Legislature Bill Tracker - Your Government - The Oregonian) which has similar effect. Both legislation quite simply make it illegal to block such installations, provided the owner's proposal is reasonable (including such things as insurance requirement, sensible billing procedures, and payment of costs).

I strongly urge the Hong Kong Government to adopt similar measures, and believe it will have a positive impact for the adoption of electric vehicles in Hong Kong, leading to improvements in our environment, health and way of life.

I suspect that this is just not high up on the government's agenda. They are more concerned with commercial transportation, and find it hard to incentivise / support private vehicles. Nevertheless, I plan on continuing to send this message to anyone in government who raises his head up to discuss the issue.

If anyone wants to use my text above, feel free to adapt and send it in yourself.

Perhaps something will come of it, perhaps nothing, but if you don't ask...

 

[lx3h]

Thanks for your hard work. We definitely could use faster and more efficient and free charging points in HK. Shopping mall charges so much for charging, say IFC!!!

I've spent so long looking at this, examining incentives, legislation covering 'selling' of electricity, easements (right of way), deeds of mutual covenants, as well as a bunch of other options. In the end, the only solution I see as workable for Hong Kong is the one that states in the USA are adopting. Specific legislation to give owners of car parks the right to install their own charging station. Making it illegal for management / ownership corporations to block such installations, even crossing common areas.

Nothing else, that I can see (and I've been banging my head against this particular wall for more than 12 months now), works.

Here's what I just wrote to Mr KS Wong, the Secretary of the Environment:



I suspect that this is just not high up on the government's agenda. They are more concerned with commercial transportation, and find it hard to incentivise / support private vehicles. Nevertheless, I plan on continuing to send this message to anyone in government who raises his head up to discuss the issue.

If anyone wants to use my text above, feel free to adapt and send it in yourself.

Perhaps something will come of it, perhaps nothing, but if you don't ask...

 

[doctorwho]

I'm following this thread as I'll be installing a charge point in my apartment carpark in Melbourne. I'll be doing it that as long as the rather long and wide Tesla S can fit up the narrow winding carpark ramps! We have a new greek building that also owns 3 community cars (unfortunately not electric) to discourage private car ownership) and has bike storage rooms for each resident so I imagine that there will be any opposition, it's just the practicalities of car access and adequate power access.

 

[FishHead]

I am seeing an increasing number of Teslas in Hong Kong the last few months. Noticeably, charging stations at IFC, where I park are now almost always occupied. Even Supercharger stations are well utilised, especially during weekends. The only feasible long-term solution is for carparks in apartment complexes to be fitted with charging facilities at individual carparks. But this still seems a rarity. Are other Tesla owners in Hong Kong who do not have facilities for charging at home finding it more difficult to charge their cars recently?

 

[Chuq]

Good timing so far as bumping this thread goes, @FishHead!

Tesla is testing a new charging solution for people living in apartments

 

[FishHead]

I've spent so long looking at this, examining incentives, legislation covering 'selling' of electricity, easements (right of way), deeds of mutual covenants, as well as a bunch of other options. In the end, the only solution I see as workable for Hong Kong is the one that states in the USA are adopting. Specific legislation to give owners of car parks the right to install their own charging station. Making it illegal for management / ownership corporations to block such installations, even crossing common areas.

Nothing else, that I can see (and I've been banging my head against this particular wall for more than 12 months now), works.

Here's what I just wrote to Mr KS Wong, the Secretary of the Environment:



I suspect that this is just not high up on the government's agenda. They are more concerned with commercial transportation, and find it hard to incentivise / support private vehicles. Nevertheless, I plan on continuing to send this message to anyone in government who raises his head up to discuss the issue.

If anyone wants to use my text above, feel free to adapt and send it in yourself.

Perhaps something will come of it, perhaps nothing, but if you don't ask...

Mark, has anything changed in Hong Kong after your post in 2013? Still no joy in trying to get at home or at work charging.

 

[markwj]

Mark, has anything changed in Hong Kong after your post in 2013? Still no joy in trying to get at home or at work charging.

The charity I chair charged.hk has been pushing for this for almost two years now. We still feel that legislative support for the right to install a charger in your own car park space is required to support EV adoption in HK. The government has done a great job for new buildings, but almost nothing for existing buildings.

That said, within the past year or so we have finally started to see some success stories (back in 2013 it was universally stories of failure to get approval). A few things have changed:

1. The volume of cars is increasing. Now, owners are finding that they are not along when approaching buildings management / owners committees. If you can get half a dozen other owners in your building to also demand charging, the chances of success are much greater.
2. In particular for the larger buildings management companies, it is becoming politically incorrect for them to block this. The pressure is building.
3. Companies such as EV Power and Smart Charge have appeared, and offer packages for residential and commercial buildings. Prices are still high, but this is progress.

So long as the government keeps pushing EVs (especially via incentives), I really feel we have the momentum now to push this.

 

[Exiom]

Sorry if this is discussed and said elsewhere and that I am bring up a necro-thread.

I live in the New Territories and in what is called a "Village House"

CLP Power allows and permits you to install a new meter (for an additional $6000 deposit) for the purpose of EV charging if your home's existing fuse box is not wired for enough amperage or if it is not 3 phase. So you do not need to upgrade the existing wiring to accommodate a bigger fuse box which is often much more expensive and labour intensive.

Additionally, your new meter will start counting from the first tier rather than adding to the end of your electric bill which would push your bill to tier 3/4+, so your recharging will be cheaper.

 

[markwj]

Sorry if this is discussed and said elsewhere and that I am bring up a necro-thread.

I live in the New Territories and in what is called a "Village House"

CLP Power allows and permits you to install a new meter (for an additional $6000 deposit) for the purpose of EV charging if your home's existing fuse box is not wired for enough amperage or if it is not 3 phase. So you do not need to upgrade the existing wiring to accommodate a bigger fuse box which is often much more expensive and labour intensive.

Additionally, your new meter will start counting from the first tier rather than adding to the end of your electric bill which would push your bill to tier 3/4+, so your recharging will be cheaper.

I am told that there are really no restrictions on this program (although it was originally envisaged to address the requirements of apartment buildings). If you want to install an EV charging facility, you can now have it on a second meter (separate from your house main supply). Pricing for this EV charging is on the non-residential tariff; this is a dramatic cost reduction as you pay at 88c/kWh ++, rather than the top usage bands.

Here is CLP's website on this:

Eco Charge | Own a charger - CLP

and the application form:

https://www.clp.com.hk/en/customer-...80.1718144956.1515978126-122058525.1515978126

 

[Exiom]

Pricing for this EV charging is on the non-residential tariff; this is a dramatic cost reduction as you pay at 88c/kWh ++, rather than the top usage bands.

I am getting this installed at the moment... the electrian should finish this week so CLP will install the meter by next week.

I think your pricing is a little bit off but yes, it is only marginally cheaper than residential tariff. It very much depends on how much your home's electric bill normally is and how often you charge. It is only until you go above 3rd tier, where starting with the 4th tier do you really see penalising rates.

For non-residential tariff (Non-Residential Tariff)
It's $1.043 first 5,000kWh + $0.22 Fuel Cost Adjustment - ($0.172 to $0.152) Energy Saving Rebate* only if your bill is less than 400kWh - $0.011

Assuming a <400kWh bill, its $1.10 per kWh
Assuming a >400kWh bill, its $1.25 per kWh

Assuming a lossless charging system, you can charge a 100kWh Tesla approximately 4 times to remain on $1.10 per kWh.

For my own daily commute, it is about 60km and I drive at 170-220watts per kilometre so say an average of 200watts per kilometre. So...
60km x 0.2kWh x 30 = 360kWh
This means I comfortably make it onto the Energy Saving Rebate program.

For residential tariff (Residential Customers)
Too many tiers to list, see link and use calculator

Assuming my own bill, I use roughly 1200-1400kWh per 2 months. So I go up to the 3rd tier. Based on the above commute, charging on my home's bill I will likely still remain on the 3rd tier.

Assuming a </=1800kWh bill, its $1.26 or less per kWh
Assuming a >1800kWh bill, its $1.3x or more per kWh

Obviously with residential tariffs with its much more complex tariff system, we are working with averages here. So if your home's power usage + your car's recharging needs is below 1700kWh, it is actually cheaper to charge on residential tariff.

Assuming a </=1600kWh bill, its $1.246 or less per kWh
Assuming a <=/1400kWh bill, its $1.227 or less per kWh

So, I think it is safe to assume that in most cases, it is cheaper to run on a 2nd meter with non-residential tariff, and in a few cases where charging is more than 400kWh and you don't use much power at home, it becomes cheaper to run on your home meter.

I hope these calculations will help somebody and educate owners to understand how it works and estimate costs to charge their cars.

Here is a list of estimate cost for a full charge (2018 CLP Power Non-Residential Tariff)

• Original 60 – ~61 kWh total capacity, ~58.5 kWh usable = $64.35
• 85/P85/85D/P85D – ~81.5 kWh total capacity, ~77.5 kWh usable = $85.25
• 90D/P90D – ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable = $89.98
• 100D/P100D – 102.4 kWh total capacity, 98.4 kWh usable = $108.24
• Original 70 – ~71.2 kWh total capacity, 68.8 kWh usable = $75.68
• 75/75D – 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable = $79.86
• Software limited 60/60D – 62.4 kWh usable = $68.64
• Software limited 70/70D – 65.9 kWh usable = $72.49

 

[markwj]

I am getting this installed at the moment... the electrian should finish this week so CLP will install the meter by next week.

Thanks for this very complete, and useful summary. It would be great to get your feedback and real-world numbers, once your installation has been completed and running for a month or so.

The key to this system is that for individual houses, it is optional. You can continue to charge your car measured by the main meter, or now optionally install a second meter. I think that for all but the smallest of houses, the second meter will be the cheaper option. I know I am paying around HK$2/kWh for my EV charging (on top of normal house usage), and that is brutal. Factor in charging inefficiencies of perhaps 20%, and this is pretty generous of CLP. Bear in mind that up until now commercial/residential has been on the zoning of the building, not usage.

7 years ago, I asked CLP for a second meter, and they refused. One house, one meter, was their policy back then.

The only caveat is that CLP will provide the meter, but you have to pay for installation of the meter and necessary re-wiring. For most individual houses, the main meter should be near the garage anyway, so not too onerous.

In my case, I need to install a new meter box, move a light switch, re-arrange an MCB, etc. And if I add solar, then means another meter (further complicating things). For me, it seems best to wait to see what happens with the solar situation here in HK. We should know more in 2018H1.

 

[Exiom]

I wouldn't exactly say it's "brutal" because in my case, I would have had a car anyway if I didn't buy a Tesla, which I would be paying much more for petrol. So on this logic, I am winning regardless had I need to pay for my own power. Also at work where I park my car, Tesla provides Wall Connectors there, so for me installing a home solution is more for convenience.

I wasn't aware CLP charges additional cost aside from the $6000 deposit, however for the installation of the Tesla 3P32A Wall Connector I had to hire an electrician to install. For me it's $13,000 which includes running a 30metre 40A cable, a new MCB, and installing the WC itself inside a outdoor stainless steel enclosure.

I am also interested in going solar, in which case I will probably cancel my 2nd meter and whatever else that needs to happen. It really all depends on what kind of support and concessions we will get. Otherwise spending a ton of money on off-grid or grid-tied no buy back solar system seems pretty stupid. Off-grid would cost substantially more too because of a large battery system.

But yes, as far as the charging cost, my example might not be applicable to everyone, but for those who are like me that primarily recharges outside on free systems. It is still worthwhile to charge at least once or twice at home because of the minimum $36 bill. You should use at least 34kWh which brings your bill to $36.72

PS: While we are on this topic, for anyone who might read this, someone in the US has tested altho unscientifically, that charging slower would actually cost more and this should be applicable to us in HK too... since the logic is that if it takes longer to charge then therefore your battery's temperature control will run for longer which causes more power use. So for anyone who charges using 13A household plugs... it will actually cost 50%more than someone who uses 3P32A WC.

 

[markwj]

PS: While we are on this topic, for anyone who might read this, someone in the US has tested altho unscientifically, that charging slower would actually cost more and this should be applicable to us in HK too... since the logic is that if it takes longer to charge then therefore your battery's temperature control will run for longer which causes more power use. So for anyone who charges using 13A household plugs... it will actually cost 50%more than someone who uses 3P32A WC.

We did this for the Tesla Roadster, back in 2011.

Charging in High Temperature environments 13A vs 32A vs 70A: cost of air conditioning

Tom Saxton has also done work on this, back then.

My results were here:

Charging in High Temperature environments 13A vs 32A vs 70A: cost of air conditioning