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Zakalwe

Member
Oct 16, 2020
417
383
UK
I’ve done exactly that - DIY’d 32 amp blue commando socket is charging my MS quite happily via some 10mm cable and an rcd protected mcb.
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Installing a new circuit needs to be notified to building control and must be done by a competent person. No-one is allowed to DIY a final circuit.
 

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Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,708
UK
Installing a new circuit needs to be notified to building control and must be done by a competent person. No-one is allowed to DIY a final circuit.

Just to qualify that:

The building regs requirement (in Part P) only applies to England and Wales. There's no requirement like this in Scotland or Northern Ireland (yet).

Anyone competent can install any circuit that doesn't require building regs approval, even in England and Wales. If it is a circuit that requires building regs approval (and many circuits in a domestic installation don't) then to make the installation lawful all they need to do is submit a building regs application, either to the LABC, or to one of the private building regs companies, and get them to inspect, test and lodge the chit on the Part P register.

Any new outdoor circuit in England and Wales needs to be approved to Part P. However, there is no requirement for a Part P certificate for modifications to existing circuits. For example, when I built this house I put in a number of spare runs of SWA, for things like power to a shed, greenhouse, two charge points and some outdoor lighting. I just terminated these cable runs in wiska boxes, and each was inspected and tested in accordance with both the regs and Part P.

I'm retired, so am now prohibited from being a member of one of the Part P cartels, but it was perfectly lawful for me to connect up charge points, lights, power outlets etc to those existing circuits, without needing to submit another Part P chit. All I needed to do was inspect, test and issue myself an EIC, noting that the Part P chit had already been lodged. By the same token, it's perfectly legal for me to still do EICRs, and any non-Part P notifiable work in England and Wales.
 

Country Boy

Member
Oct 8, 2020
79
28
Herefordshire
Whilst I think that "droning John Ward" is usually spot on with most things, there is nothing in the regs at all that differentiates between an outlet intended for charging a normal road-going electric vehicle, based on current. The mention of 10 A only applies to, (quoted directly from Amendment 1 to BS7671:2018):



This section makes it clear that the =<10 A exception ONLY applies to "mobility scooters and similar vehicles". A normal road-going electric car definitely doesn't fall within this category.


So using your logic, the exemption from PEN fault protection etc in the regulations does not apply for charging vehicles, so has to be provided even when using a granny charger.... so the use of UMC is a breach of the regulations... You cannot be exempted by 722.1
 

Sparkeur

Member
Feb 23, 2020
419
573
Nouvelle Aquitaine
I've just had 32A 'prise bleu' as they are called here in France installed by my electrician for 280€. It's big, connected to a clicky-fuse'y thing with a anti-electrocute yourself device attached. I was so happy yesterday as it only took 2 hours to charge from 60-80% on my overnight cheap rate.
Having read this thread, I doubt I shall sleep tonight so I'm ready to extinguish all the fires/mini explosions/meltdowns that I am now convinced will occur in the dead of night.
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,708
UK
So using your logic, the exemption from PEN fault protection etc in the regulations does not apply for charging vehicles, so has to be provided even when using a granny charger.... so the use of UMC is a breach of the regulations... You cannot be exempted by 722.1

No, not what I've written at all. Remember that appliances are not covered by the wiring regs, as they are not a fixed installation. BS7671:2018 does not apply to any appliance or non-fixed wiring, that's detailed in the scope of the standard.

It's not my logic, anyway, it's the IETs, and TBH I don't necessarily agree with all that the IET do when it comes to framing regulations, in particular the sticking plaster fixes they dream up to cover poor design and workmanship.

Section 722 is pretty clear now, though. There's an exemption from the need to comply with the EV charging elements for mobility scooters etc that are charged at less than 10 A. There is no exemption for outlets that are installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles other than mobility scooters etc. If they are charged using an outlet intended for EV charging then that outlet needs to comply with all applicable parts of BS7671:2018.

Open PEN protection is only required for TN-C-S/PME supplies, and only then when the charging cable can charge a vehicle outside. Fit a charge point or outlet in a garage, where the lead cannot reach outside, and open PEN protection isn't required (same logic as applies to any other area inside a building). Connect a charge point to a supply other than TN-C-S/PME and open PEN protection isn't required (for obvious reasons). Any outlet intended for EV charging, wherever it's located, must have DC tolerant RCD protection, as well as over current protection.
 
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Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,708
UK
I've just had 32A 'prise bleu' as they are called here in France installed by my electrician for 280€. It's big, connected to a clicky-fuse'y thing with a anti-electrocute yourself device attached. I was so happy yesterday as it only took 2 hours to charge from 60-80% on my overnight cheap rate.
Having read this thread, I doubt I shall sleep tonight so I'm ready to extinguish all the fires/mini explosions/meltdowns that I am now convinced will occur in the dead of night.

The LV electrical distribution system in France is very different to that in the UK, about the only thing that's similar is that the voltage is fairly similar (although usually around 5% or so lower than the UK). They don't use a PEN conductor on incoming supplies, plus the line and neutral are interchangeable at the outlets, unlike the UK, where we always keep the line on the right (looking at the outlet), and it's a serious, and potentially dangerous, electrical fault here if the line and neutral get swapped anywhere. France also has a different supply power rating to the premises, or rather a range of them, so that the maximum power available depends on the tariff you're on. If you want more power you just ask EDF/ANOther for it, they put it in and you pay the higher tariff.

French electrical regulations also bear little resemblance to UK regulations, and are generally a hell of lot more relaxed. As I found out when helping a friend sort out the wiring in a holiday let in the Loire, cables can, and do, run anywhere, there seemed to be no concept of safe zones at all. From what I recall, there was no fuse on the incoming supply, either, and earthing was mainly TT I think, no TN-C-S or PME as far as I'm aware, because of the interchangeable line and neutral arrangement.
 

Sparkeur

Member
Feb 23, 2020
419
573
Nouvelle Aquitaine
If you want more power you just ask EDF/ANOther for it, they put it in and you pay the higher tariff.

Yep, I'm on 9kVA

From what I recall, there was no fuse on the incoming supply, either, and earthing was mainly TT I think, no TN-C-S or PME as far as I'm aware, because of the interchangeable line and neutral arrangement.

I'm not sure if this is making me feel any better....:D
 

Glan gluaisne

Supporting Member
Sep 11, 2019
2,782
2,708
UK
I'm not sure if this is making me feel any better....:D

From what I remember, EDF mandated that the consumer had to fit and test an earth pit/electrode before they'd connect the pillar at my friend's place. In general, TT earth systems are perhaps a bit safer than TN systems, as long as everything is kept in good condition. This system does mean that there it's less likely that there would be a potential difference between the local earth close to the vehicle and the earth potential of the circuit protective conductor ("earth wire") in the house wiring. The main reasons TT fell out of favour in the UK was the need for every installation to have a well-maintained earth electrode and connection, plus the difficulty in installing an earth electrode safety in tightly packed housing. I've always felt that it's just safer overall to wire detached outbuildings as TT, with their own RCD, as it's a cheap way of providing a safe and reliable earthing system (as long as the RCD is regularly tested and there's no damage/corrosion affected the earth electrode and its connections).

IIRC, because so many installations in France are TT, RCDs have been in common use for decades, unlike the UK, when we only started mandating their use in 2008, when the 17th Edition of BS7671 came out. There are still millions of UK domestic wiring installations that have no RCD protection at all, because they predate the change in the regs. In that respect I think that France, and much of Europe, was ahead of the UK, as they are with their use of radial circuits, which are inherently safer that the daft British ring final circuits (ring finals should be outlawed here, IMHO).
 
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