Honda Clarity FCEV revealed!

[stopcrazypp]

Honda CEO: electric vehicles are a 'core technology'

I very much doubt they can/will only release another short-range BEV in 2018 when direct competitors offer longer-range EVs (Bolt, Leaf 2...) at similar price points.

FCEVs on the other hand will be made in small quantities at Honda over the coming years, even fewer units than at Toyota planned until 2020 (small fleet sales and demo units for public entities).

They are using the same exact definition of "electric vehicles" as "electrification" there (aka "electric drive" which includes hybrids and FCVs):
"As the next-generation of mobility products, Honda will evolve products that use electricity as a core technology"...
"The Honda FCEV Concept not only sets our direction for our next generation fuel-cell vehicle in 2015, but for future improvements in electric drive technology".

The article says absolutely nothing about their plans for BEVs, only FCEVs.

 

[tftf]

The article says absolutely nothing about their plans for BEVs, only FCEVs.

But the first link does. Do I really have to quote it?

There will be three vehicles coming from Honda until 2018: FCEV, PHEV and a BEV:

Next-Generation Advanced Powertrain VehiclesIn addition to the all-new fuel-cell vehicle, by 2018 Honda will introduce several next-generation advanced powertrain vehicles that will leverage new Honda Earth Dreams™ Technology powertrains. These next-generation vehicles will build on Honda's longstanding portfolio approach to advancing ultra-low carbon technologies for mobility and will include:

• An all-new Honda plug-in hybrid model (PHEV);
• An all-new Honda battery-electric vehicle (BEV); and
• Further application of our two- and three-motor hybrid systems to contribute to significant sales volume growth for Honda's U.S. hybrid vehicle lineup.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But the first link does. Do I really have to quote it?

There will be three vehicles coming from Honda until 2018: FCEV, PHEV and a BEV:

Again, that says nothing about what role they plan the BEV to play. The FCEV they have a projected volume and explicitly called it out, while for the BEV there is no detail. This is consistent with anticitizen13.7's suggestion that Honda is fully behind FCVs and don't value BEVs highly.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Honda is working on all three options, BEV, PHEV and FCEV.

I very much doubt they can/will only release another short-range BEV in 2018 when direct competitors offer longer-range EVs (Bolt, Leaf 2...) at similar price points.

I'm aware they are working on all three options.

However, unless there are indications to the contrary (rumors from insider sources, company leaks), I have little reason to believe that Honda is actively pursuing a long-range BEV option. I'm very tuned in to the Honda community in general and follow several Honda-oriented forums. So far, there is no evidence that Honda intends to compete with the Bolt and Leaf.

You can get a sense of where Honda is going by the way they show off their state-of-the-art products: http://www.greencarreports.com/news...40-mile-range-use-fuel-cell-vehicles-platform

Honda is a company with significant engineering heritage and a lot of pride in the quality of their manufacturing. They do like to show off, in a fun way.

In prior years, Honda demonstrated 3-motor hybrid systems (The "sport Hybrid" system used in the RLX, and a different, more advanced system used in NSX), and 7-speed dual clutch sport transmissions used in the JDM Fit. These eventually became production products, or are near production, in the case of NSX.

What are they showing off this year? The new Fuel Cell powertrain, which combines the electric motor and fuel cell stack into a package the size of a gasoline engine. Honda is very proud of this effort, which is much more compact and elegant than what their competitors at Toyota offer in the Mirai sedan.

I realize that this goes against your idea or hope of almost everyone entering the long-range BEV market, but Honda is Honda and they march to their own beat. They will not simply rush after Tesla, Nissan, and GM. Honda, like Toyota, is very much convinced that fueling time at a station is crucial to customer acceptance for a long-range car.

- - - Updated - - -

Additionally,

Honda has teamed up with rival GM on alternative powertrains. Their alliance is on fuel cells: http://www.autonews.com/article/201...gm-honda-join-forces-for-one-fuel-cell-design

Choosing a major partner for fuel cells, rather than a major partner for batteries, is a strong indication of where Honda places greatest emphasis.

 

[tftf]

I'm aware they are working on all three options. ...

I realize that this goes against your idea or hope of almost everyone entering the long-range BEV market, but Honda is Honda and they march to their own beat. They will not simply rush after Tesla, Nissan, and GM. Honda, like Toyota, is very much convinced that fueling time at a station is crucial to customer acceptance for a long-range car.
.

It's not my idea. I simply look at announcements from various car companies, upcoming regulation in key car markets and other trends (eg. battery pricing from LG Chem and possible range first coming with the GM Bolt in 2017).

Yes, I still think all major car makers (with the exception of maybe Fiat-Chrysler and Toyota) will offer longer-range BEVs and PHEVs between 2017-2020. It's inevitable given upcoming emission regulations. That includes Honda.

Why should Honda reveal detailed specs today? This car is coming in 2018, give it time until we are closer to a release date.

PS: FCEVs won't help a lot in most markets (Japan likely is the exception to the rule) because of missing fuel infrastructure in this timeframe, look at the low numbers the most ardent proponent (Toyota) is projecting for FCEVs until 2020.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Yes, I still think all major car makers (with the exception of maybe Fiat-Chrysler and Toyota) will offer longer-range BEVs and PHEVs between 2017-2020. It's inevitable given upcoming emission regulations. That includes Honda.

Why should Honda reveal detailed specs today? This car is coming in 2018, give it time until we are closer to a release date.

I don't think you really understand Honda Motor Co., its culture, or its heritage.

No, they wouldn't reveal "final" specifications for anything, but they always strongly hint at the direction they are going. With few exceptions, Honda's concepts and projected use cases almost always closely reflect the actual production vehicles. That direction is PHEV and FCEV for long-distance travel, and BEV for local travel.



It's almost a given than Honda will introduce a PHEV in the 2018 time frame.

Honda has hinted at this for years, most notably with the AC-X concept revealed at Tokyo in November 2011: http://www.caranddriver.com/news/honda-ac-x-concept-at-2011-tokyo-auto-show-news

Note the name: "Advanced Cruiser eXperience". This is part of Honda's vision for long-range driving.

The AC-X—its name is short for Advanced Cruiser eXperience—carries the duality theme throughout. The powertrain is of the plug-in hybrid variety, with a 161-hp electric motor that can propel the car up to 62 mph and as far as 31 miles in pure-EV mode (although probably not at the same time) coupled to a 127-hp, 1.6-liter internal-combustion engine.

My recollection is that Honda emphasized range of 600+ miles for the AC-X.

The Honda Accord PHEV, sold in limited numbers, was the "Beta" for the eventual AC-X, although it uses a much smaller battery (only 10-15 miles EV) and a 2.0L Aktinson-cycle i-VTEC gasoline engine.


Honda Electric concepts focus around small cars

For example: http://world.honda.com/news/2011/4111130EV-STER/

Featuring a dynamic and innovative styling design and excellent environmental performance, the EV-STER, an electric rear-wheel-drive two-seater convertible sports car, will propose a new way to enjoy a sports type model which is unique to the electromotive mobility. The adoption of carbon materials made it possible to reduce the vehicle weight contributing to the vehicle's high driving performance and range of approximately 160km.

And: http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/30/8868593/honda-cr-z-electric-pikes-peak-hill-climb

The normal CR-Z, a small hybrid coupe, is an unassuming car by almost any definition. (It's fallen a little flat in that regard, considering it's a spiritual successor to both the CR-X and the groundbreaking first-generation Insight.) But then, out of nowhere, Honda goes and swaps out the drivetrain for a high-strung all-electric situation with all-wheel drive and steering. Now you're talking.

Now, if Honda starts demonstrating Civic and Accord-sized vehicles with all-electric powertrains, or starts bringing new long-range concept BEVs to auto shows, or starts telling Honda fan websites about exciting new long-range BEVs, I would say this would be a good indication of a mindset shift at Honda headquarters. Right now, the evidence isn't there.

 

[tftf]

I really don't have time to further argue what Honda will or won't do in 2018-2020 regarding BEVs. Only Honda knows.

Their PR from Jan 2015 is quite clear imho and unless they change plans (or switch CEO or board members again) that's what I see:

• An all-new Honda battery-electric vehicle (BEV) - 2018

It's certainly not a surprising plan since most major car makers (from Audi to Volvo) work on similar, longer-range BEVs in the same time frame.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Hopefully they'll launch a long-range BEV in 2018. I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

[miimura]

As 2018 approaches, Honda will have to decide how they will meet the CARB ZEV requirements going forward. The requirement for 2018 model year is 2.0% of sales and increases 2% per year through 2025 when it reaches 16%. In my mind, there is no way they are going to be able to meet that with fuel cells even with the credit multiplication they receive. The short run Fit EV was produced to meet the 0.79% requirement in effect for model years 2012-2014.

 

[stopcrazypp]

As 2018 approaches, Honda will have to decide how they will meet the CARB ZEV requirements going forward. The requirement for 2018 model year is 2.0% of sales and increases 2% per year through 2025 when it reaches 16%. In my mind, there is no way they are going to be able to meet that with fuel cells even with the credit multiplication they receive. The short run Fit EV was produced to meet the 0.79% requirement in effect for model years 2012-2014.

That assumes the rules will stay static. Given CARB has continually eased their rules in response to automaker demands, I have no doubt Honda and other will use hydrogen as an excuse to easy the rules further (as they have done in the past).

 

[hiroshiy]

Unlike Toyota, Honda seems to only lease this vehicle in limited numbers for now (from March 2016). After seeing market reaction, they may decide to sell the car to public.

So this is still a beta for them. Doesn't show Honda's firm direction as of now I guess.

 

[miimura]

That assumes the rules will stay static. Given CARB has continually eased their rules in response to automaker demands, I have no doubt Honda and other will use hydrogen as an excuse to easy the rules further (as they have done in the past).

I think there is ample evidence that the CARB mandates can be met with BEV, FCEV, and TZEV. The Board has already told automakers to pound sand recently given Tesla's success. The Board doesn't care so much how automakers get there since there are different paths available. Heck, the Board doesn't even care if automakers buy credits as long as the aggregate benefit of the targets is achieved.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think there is ample evidence that the CARB mandates can be met with BEV, FCEV, and TZEV. The Board has already told automakers to pound sand recently given Tesla's success. The Board doesn't care so much how automakers get there since there are different paths available. Heck, the Board doesn't even care if automakers buy credits as long as the aggregate benefit of the targets is achieved.

Well, they recently eased their rules for the second tier automakers so they don't have to build ZEVs (but can satisfy requirements with TZEVs).
http://wardsauto.com/politics/will-carb-s-eased-zev-rules-grow-cleaner-car-demand

BEVs have been hovering around 1.5-2% of market share in California, so obviously CARB isn't going to pare back on that, but in terms of the 2025 16% I'm sure automakers will lobby. Of course if Tesla and others absolutely smashes the market, then that helps CARB keep the same level. However, in that case I think it would be market forces driving Honda toward BEVs, not the mandate (Honda and Toyota can no longer stubbornly refuse to acknowledge BEVs being viable for long range passenger cars).

 

[Oba]

(Honda and Toyota can no longer stubbornly refuse to acknowledge BEVs being viable for long range passenger cars).

Well, Toyota can and does refuse. I suspect they will for quite some time (as long as they are getting premium CARB credits with hydrogen).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Well, Toyota can and does refuse. I suspect they will for quite some time (as long as they are getting premium CARB credits with hydrogen).

They refuse right now because they are "justified". The EV market share is still low at 1-2% and the only viable long range EVs today are Tesla (which they brush off as not applicable to the mass market). Things would be a lot different when the Model 3 comes out (as well as the other 200 mile EVs).

 

[Yggdrasill]

They refuse right now because they are "justified". The EV market share is still low at 1-2% and the only viable long range EVs today are Tesla (which they brush off as not applicable to the mass market). Things would be a lot different when the Model 3 comes out (as well as the other 200 mile EVs).

I would expect them to hang on to their assumptions for far too long. I wouldn't expect a long range BEV from Toyota before 2025.

Like I've said before, Toyota is like a frog that is slowly being boiled. They don't see the danger and they never will until it's too late.

 

[mknox]

I would expect them to hang on to their assumptions for far too long. I wouldn't expect a long range BEV from Toyota before 2025.

Like I've said before, Toyota is like a frog that is slowly being boiled. They don't see the danger and they never will until it's too late.

Classic innovator's dilemma. Toyota put a lot of their time and treasure into their Hybrid Synergy Drive and just don't want to give up on it yet.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Unlike Toyota, Honda seems to only lease this vehicle in limited numbers for now (from March 2016). After seeing market reaction, they may decide to sell the car to public.

So this is still a beta for them. Doesn't show Honda's firm direction as of now I guess.

There seems to be a lot of institutional momentum behind the Honda FCX project line: The R&D efforts of the late 90's lead to the 2002 FCX. The 2008 FCX Clarity sedan was undoubtedly a massive effort, resulting in a beautiful car that could almost replace a Honda Accord. This year's Clarity FCV is probably the first viable FCEV alternative to a mid-size sedan. It can seat 5 people without compromise and has reasonable trunk space.

Companies can and do change directions, but sometimes this is not easy. In Honda's case, leaving FCEVs behind would mean walking away from 20 years or more of intense R&D efforts.

Classic innovator's dilemma. Toyota put a lot of their time and treasure into their Hybrid Synergy Drive and just don't want to give up on it yet.

Honda faces the same problem.

The company made enormous investments not just in FCEV, but in hybrid technology. Both the 3-motor Sport Hybrid powertrain and 2.0L Atkinson dual motor hybrid powertrain are expected to be used in Honda products for years.

These powertrains are high quality products and very good at their intended purpose: squeezing every last bit of performance out of gasoline.

 

[autodidaddict]

Honda and Toyota should stop wasting R & D money on fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) and put funds toward EVs instead.

FCVs are terribly inefficient due to all of the energy conversions required. It's so much easier to simply go home and plug in my EV, versus finding hydrogen refueling stations and waiting in line. Hydrogen has no odor and is also invisible, even when burned, so that qualifies it as dangerous.

As others have mentioned, the cost to use electricity is less than the cost of hydrogen. It could actually be zero for electricity especially when using solar/wind energy.

I was hoping someone else would make this point. To me, if you still have to burn something to fuel your car, you're doing it wrong. Trying to find more environmentally friendly things to burn is equivalent to Ford's (spuriously sourced) quote about his customer's asking for a faster horse rather than a car.

 

[miimura]

Well, they recently eased their rules for the second tier automakers so they don't have to build ZEVs (but can satisfy requirements with TZEVs).
http://wardsauto.com/politics/will-carb-s-eased-zev-rules-grow-cleaner-car-demand

BEVs have been hovering around 1.5-2% of market share in California, so obviously CARB isn't going to pare back on that, but in terms of the 2025 16% I'm sure automakers will lobby. Of course if Tesla and others absolutely smashes the market, then that helps CARB keep the same level. However, in that case I think it would be market forces driving Honda toward BEVs, not the mandate (Honda and Toyota can no longer stubbornly refuse to acknowledge BEVs being viable for long range passenger cars).

I think that the CARB decision to allow the intermediate manufacturers (Volvo, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Jaguar-Land Rover, and Subaru) to meet their ZEV requirements with plug-ins for a longer period of time is perfectly reasonable. Due to the lower number of credits per vehicle for a TZEV than a BEV, they have to make more of them, but that's a fair trade off because they produce an equal or greater number of electric miles in total.