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Honest question about battery degradation...

KenC

Active Member
Sep 4, 2018
3,615
3,282
Maine
KenC, "no degradation" is not possible given the way batteries behave chemically. I think you are also mislead by inaccurate information, but it looks good for you instead of looking bad for others.

Having said that, I do agree that the chances are, whatever I say won't change anyone's opinion. I'm just trying to inform.
When people say "no degradation", they mean no deg reported by the BMS. We all know that still means some chemical degradation. It's not really practical to have everyone write, no degradation, as reported by the BMS, every time, can we? No one here is trying to "mislead". If you see "inaccurate information", please feel free to point it out.

Do we have anyone else with a grievance that I can address?
 
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GtiMart

Member
Nov 13, 2019
979
820
Quebec City, Canada
I didn't say you were misleading us... I said you were being misled by the information your bms is giving you. I now see you understand its not precise. We're all good. I do see people that take those numbers as if they were perfectly precise. That's what bugs me as they are misunderstanding. Even journalists sometimes mislead people, especially in the young EV world.
 
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tccartier

Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2015
952
978
AZ.
I struggle to understand why anyone would be obsessed with or care much about battery degradation...

Tesla provides a warranty that addresses extreme capacity loss, in the unlikely event that such loss occurs.

Teslas use lithium-ion batteries, which like all batteries suffer from some amount of capacity loss over time and through hundreds or thousands of charging cycles. Charging per Tesla's recommendations should enable the least battery degradation and the longest overall battery life.

Even if a car loses 10% (20-30 miles) of its range over 5-7 years, how would that materially impact peoples' daily lives with their cars? Are there that many people who drive their cars 200+ miles a day, every day, and who couldn't spend an extra 5-10 minutes at a Supercharger if the need arose?

I understand that there are "edge case scenarios" where such degradation would have an impact, but even for me, who drives 400 miles each way multiple times a year, 10% range loss would only mean an extra 10-15 minutes of Supercharging time per trip. Hardly a deal-breaker, IMHO.

So please, help me understand an obsession with battery degradation/range loss.

Thx.

The simple answer is some of us don't drive brand new cars all the time. My Model S is a 2012 I picked up when it was 4 years old as a CPO unit. It had 44,000 mi on it when I got it now I am at 110,000 roughly so yes I'm a little concerned about battery longevity I'm driving this car with no warranties of any kind drivetrain battery or otherwise. Not obsessing but at some point as these cars filter into the used car market people are going to be buying these as used cars and financing them for several years so yes battery degradation and its rate and the health of the battery is a thing for the rest of us that don't drive new cars all the time. But still prefer to drive electric
 
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CaptMhack

Member
Mar 4, 2020
37
26
Tampa
I struggle to understand why anyone would be obsessed with or care much about battery degradation...

Tesla provides a warranty that addresses extreme capacity loss, in the unlikely event that such loss occurs.

Teslas use lithium-ion batteries, which like all batteries suffer from some amount of capacity loss over time and through hundreds or thousands of charging cycles. Charging per Tesla's recommendations should enable the least battery degradation and the longest overall battery life.

Even if a car loses 10% (20-30 miles) of its range over 5-7 years, how would that materially impact peoples' daily lives with their cars? Are there that many people who drive their cars 200+ miles a day, every day, and who couldn't spend an extra 5-10 minutes at a Supercharger if the need arose?

I understand that there are "edge case scenarios" where such degradation would have an impact, but even for me, who drives 400 miles each way multiple times a year, 10% range loss would only mean an extra 10-15 minutes of Supercharging time per trip. Hardly a deal-breaker, IMHO.

So please, help me understand an obsession with battery degradation/range loss.

Thx.

20-30 miles is a difference between 14 hours road trip and 16 hours.. huge difference. You pay for so many miles because you know you need it, and if like in my case car lost 20 miles in 10 month 200 out of 220 it's not good. This means I go to one spot, then I need to go to another but can't because I have to drive back. This creates a need to stop at the supercharger twice on the way there and back. This adds 1 hour wait. Difference between good and bad battery.
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
723
841
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
20-30 miles is a difference between 14 hours road trip and 16 hours.. huge difference. You pay for so many miles because you know you need it, and if like in my case car lost 20 miles in 10 month 200 out of 220 it's not good. This means I go to one spot, then I need to go to another but can't because I have to drive back. This creates a need to stop at the supercharger twice on the way there and back. This adds 1 hour wait. Difference between good and bad battery.

20-30 miles of range replacement at a Supercharger takes 5-10 minutes, not an hour.
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
723
841
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
I appreciate the honest sharing of opinions and viewpoints.

I certainly wasn't trying to change anyone's opinion - I really wanted insight into why people obsess over a few percentage points of battery capacity or miles of range here and there.

The consensus answer to my question appears to be "Because we can/because we want to.", and that's cool.

A few "edge case scenarios" notwithstanding, I still see no value in worrying about it, because there's nothing we can do about it, and it doesn't materially affect the vast majority of owners.

Peace out and Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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KenC

Active Member
Sep 4, 2018
3,615
3,282
Maine
20-30 miles is a difference between 14 hours road trip and 16 hours.. huge difference. You pay for so many miles because you know you need it, and if like in my case car lost 20 miles in 10 month 200 out of 220 it's not good. This means I go to one spot, then I need to go to another but can't because I have to drive back. This creates a need to stop at the supercharger twice on the way there and back. This adds 1 hour wait. Difference between good and bad battery.
You should look at ABRP, aka A Better Routeplanner. It'll let you run some simulations, and help you to understand what helps and what hurts efficiency. Also, it'll help you understand charging strategies to minimize trip times. Alot depends upon charger spacing whether a trip will take longer with reduced range.

I can simulate a trip in a SR+ or a SR, from Maine to NC, typically a 14hr trip, and ABRP shows the exact same result for both vehicles, because the Supercharger spacing is close enough that the charging strategy and optimal trip time are exactly the same. In other areas of the country, where the spacing is different, you may get a different result.
 

CaptMhack

Member
Mar 4, 2020
37
26
Tampa
20-30 miles of range replacement at a Supercharger takes 5-10 minutes, not an hour.

Not if it is a difference between going home on the 20-30 miles you have or re-routing for an hour to a supercharger out of the way because you lack 20-30 miles to get you home without charging.. big difference!

You should look at ABRP, aka A Better Routeplanner. It'll let you run some simulations, and help you to understand what helps and what hurts efficiency. Also, it'll help you understand charging strategies to minimize trip times. Alot depends upon charger spacing whether a trip will take longer with reduced range.

I can simulate a trip in a SR+ or a SR, from Maine to NC, typically a 14hr trip, and ABRP shows the exact same result for both vehicles, because the Supercharger spacing is close enough that the charging strategy and optimal trip time are exactly the same. In other areas of the country, where the spacing is different, you may get a different result.

I'm using it right now, it's not the best. I'm doing a manual planning better than it does automatically.

I did this upgrade for this trip and it's a difference of 2 supercharger stops as I said 14 hr vs 16 hrs.
I've gained +36 miles since the SR+ upgrade and that cuts my trip time by 2 hours.
 
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SSonnentag

Rocket Scientist
Apr 11, 2017
1,737
2,188
Arizona
I have lost 9% of my battery capacity in 3 years, 335 miles down to 308 miles. I don't mind the range loss so much as the supercharging speed loss. My car now tops out at 105 kW instead of the 145 kW or so it used to. This adds about 20 minutes to every charge while traveling, which I do a lot of.
 
May 12, 2019
79
43
Chicago
I wouldn't rely on rated miles as a measure of degradation as the constant used for rated miles changes with software releases. Generally the constant is lowered over time, which can boost perceived miles. It would be better to measure power you can pull from the pack.
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
723
841
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
Not if it is a difference between going home on the 20-30 miles you have or re-routing for an hour to a supercharger out of the way because you lack 20-30 miles to get you home without charging.. big difference!....

I'm doing a manual planning better than it does automatically...

All evidence to the contrary if your "manual planning" puts you in the situation you described...

I'm using it right now, it's not the best.

If you're thinking that ABRP doesn't work very well then it seems you don't fully understand how to use it...

Adjust the "Detailed settings" to match your actual conditions (car, speed and climate conditions) and it gives remarkably accurate results, in my experience...
 
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tccartier

Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2015
952
978
AZ.
All evidence to the contrary if your "manual planning" puts you in the situation you described...



If you're thinking that ABRP doesn't work very well then it seems you don't fully understand how to use it...

Adjust the "Detailed settings" to match your actual conditions (car, speed and climate conditions) and it gives remarkably accurate results, in my experience...

The in-car nav itself does an excellent job as well so long as you don't require multiple waypoints.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,530
10,726
Riverside Co. CA
I am leaning VERY heavily at moving this post to the thread I believe it belongs to, which is here:

MASTER THREAD: Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, How to Maintain Battery Health

I am willing to be convinced that this somehow needs to be a separate post instead of in that thread, but will be honest that it will need to be either a convincing argument from OP or interaction from several people thinking it needs to remain a separate thread.

I thought this was fairly evident, but I will say it anyway. I obviously decided to leave it (the thread) where it was, since this is now december 3rd, and I made that statement at the beginning of the thread.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,530
10,726
Riverside Co. CA
My original question has been answered, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I will direct further questions in this thread about range etc, to the Master Thread...

My comment above was not directed at you. I got a "disagree" on my statement to move it, which would be understandable, if it didnt come in yesterday, 12/3, lol. I just thought I would mention that I had no intention of moving it. You can keep commenting in this thread if you desire (or not, if you dont).
 
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