Hong Kong Tesla Model S Charging Standard

[markwj]

Thanks. That's very useful. One last question: What percentage of gas car owners in Hong-Kong do you think wouldn't be able to charge at home or work if they had bought an electric car? Is that more than 60%? What is your best guess?

The vast majority, at the moment. Last year's figure for EV owners was 40% could charge at home/work, 60% couldn't. We've got to assume that those early adopters would be skewed towards those that can more easily charge.

Blind guess would be currently perhaps 90% of car owners would not have access to charging facilities at home/work or would not easily be able to install those facilities. Close to 100% in town, with the remainder being out-of-town countryside dwellers.

Things are changing, and over the coming years home/work charging will become easier. But for the moment, it is damn hard.

 

[Troy]

Thanks. It looks like there is a huge untapped potential market once there are plenty of city superchargers.

In your first message, you indicated that because there are lots of Teslas with free supercharging, it would take a while until new Teslas under the credits system exceed them. Therefore it seems unlikely that Tesla would start building more superchargers in cities because if they do cars that have free supercharging will use them and it will cost Tesla. But I think Tesla might have a plan to avoid that. If you read the blog post carefully, there is too much emphasis on long distance travel. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think they are planning to differentiate long distance superchargers from city superchargers. Cars that have free supercharging will continue using long distance superchargers for free but they will need to pay to use city superchargers. That's just my theory.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tesla says something like this: "All current superchargers we have built so far and all future long distance superchargers will continue to be free for cars that have free supercharging enabled. In addition, we will build superchargers in cities for Tesla owners who don't have home charging. Existing Tesla owners who don't have home charging are also welcome to use these by purchasing kWh credits."

 

[markwj]

I think they are planning to differentiate long distance superchargers from city superchargers. Cars that have free supercharging will continue using long distance superchargers for free but they will need to pay to use city superchargers.

So what would happen when they do that here in Hong Kong? Everybody who purchased the car with 'free supercharging for life' as part of their sales contract, and who has been using the superchargers here for the past three years under those contractual terms, would suddenly have to start paying? Tesla would, quite simply, be sued.

The blog post says:

These changes will not impact current owners or any new Teslas ordered before January 1, 2017, as long as delivery is taken before April 1, 2017.

I think that is pretty clear. They will honour the 'free for life' for existing owners, and start charging per kWh block for new owners from 1st Jan 2017.

For Teslas ordered after January 1, 2017, 400 kWh of free Supercharging credits (roughly 1,000 miles) will be included annually so that all owners can continue to enjoy free Supercharging during travel.

That is Tesla's differentiation between city and long-distance. The 400kWh/year allowance for non-free-for-life owners allows them to still do a substantial amount of long-distance mileage free on superchargers. That is something like 2,000km / 1,250miles of allowance per year. Owners using superchargers on a daily basis for city charging would quickly go through that allowance.

 

[Troy]

Hi @markwj. As you know the documents you sign during purchase don't mention anything about free supercharging. Here is an example. There is a Tesla web page here that explains supercharging and it says supercharging is for long distance travel. That web page always used to say long distance travel.

Now you might argue that Elon said free for life. Yes but it was free for life for long distance travel. In fact, if you read the blog post carefully, it says "our intention has always been for Supercharging to enable long distance travel." This is not an accidental sentence. Why would Tesla feel the need to explain whether or not supercharging was always meant for long distance travel from the beginning on? If you look at this sentence, there is no reason for it to be in the blog post other than the following implied meaning: If some people misunderstood what supercharging was about and thought it would cover local driving as well, that's not correct and it is not what Tesla has advertised and sold. If somebody wants to challenge Tesla on this, they should know that supercharging was always advertised for long distance travel.

 

[markwj]

If somebody wants to challenge Tesla on this, they should know that supercharging was always advertised for long distance travel.

I am speaking solely for Hong Kong here (this is the Hong Kong sub-forum). In Hong Kong, there is no long-distance travel. You can drive a complete circuit of Hong Kong in about 200km. The superchargers here are all city chargers, and the users have three years of history of unlimited free use.

For example, here is the support page from Tesla regarding supercharging:

Supercharging

So, I would ask you; if Hong Kong has the highest density of Superchargers in the world, and there is no long distance travel, then what is the intended use?

How much does it cost to use the Superchargers?
Supercharging is free for the life of your Tesla vehicle, once the Supercharger option is enabled.

Sure, they mention long distance travel across the USA, but that is not relevant for Hong Kong. I think Tesla would have a hard time trying to take that back, here.

 

[Troy]

You could be right. I've checked some numbers and it looks like it won't be necessary to take back city superchargers from grandfathered cars because they will quickly become a small portion of all Teslas. On January 1st, 2017 when free supercharging ends, Tesla's global fleet will reach 189,566 units. That's the total number of Teslas that will have free supercharging.

In 2017, if Tesla starts building lots of city superchargers around the world, they will lose too much money because most Teslas will still have free supercharging. However, if they wait only 18 months until July 1st, 2018 before building any city superchargers, the global fleet then will reach 585,688 units. That means by that time only 32% of Teslas would have free supercharging.

 

[punter]

A quick question on optimal charging practices. My sales guy said it is good for the battery to limit charging to 90% of capacity. But I understand that a 90D battery is the same as a 100D battery, just throttled back by software. If this is true, one might guess that there would be no need for a 90D owner to stop charging at 90% but instead go for the full 100% charge. Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. Thoughts?

 

[smtung]

the salesman said that? he might know something that nobody knows

 

[JimmyMcNulty]

I understand that a 90D battery is the same as a 100D battery, just throttled back by software.

May I ask what your source is for this?

 

[miimura]

A quick question on optimal charging practices. My sales guy said it is good for the battery to limit charging to 90% of capacity. But I understand that a 90D battery is the same as a 100D battery, just throttled back by software. If this is true, one might guess that there would be no need for a 90D owner to stop charging at 90% but instead go for the full 100% charge. Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. Thoughts?

The 90kWh battery is definitely different than the 100kWh battery. Right now the 100kWh battery is being produced on a low volume assembly line, just for the P100D. Eventually, after they complete the automation process for assembling the 100kWh battery, the 90 will likely be discontinued, much like the 85 was. However, they will have to introduce the 100 and 100D before they discontinue the 90 and 90D. The 60kWh Model S (2nd Gen) was introduced after the 75 and 75D and uses a software restricted 75kWh battery pack, which can be unlocked at any time, for a fee.

 

[MP3Mike]

However, they will have to introduce the 100 and 100D before they discontinue the 90 and 90D.

There will be no 100, just like there is no 90. At this point only the 60 and 75 come in a RWD version, and I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the RWD 75.

 

[Troy]

Hi. What do people here think about Elon's solar car roof idea that would keep the car at the current charge level if you left it parked on the street? I think most forum members are from the USA and have their own garage. They might see less value in this feature but I wonder if this could be useful in Hong-Kong, China and elsewhere around the world. There is a discussion topic about it here. Feel free to join the discussion.

 

[frangus6]

Anyone in Hong Kong purchased a Chademo adpater? I would like to know how the compatibility is with the Chademo stations around HK? Thanks.

 

[markwj]

Hi. What do people here think about Elon's solar car roof idea that would keep the car at the current charge level if you left it parked on the street? I think most forum members are from the USA and have their own garage. They might see less value in this feature but I wonder if this could be useful in Hong-Kong, China and elsewhere around the world

There is not much in-city street parking in HK, and what we have is mostly heavily shaded (tall buildings surrounding).

If I had to guess at a figure for percentage on-street parking lots with clear unshaded view of the sky (and sun) for a large portion of the day, I'd say < 0.1%.

 

[lx3h]

Anyone in Hong Kong purchased a Chademo adpater? I would like to know how the compatibility is with the Chademo stations around HK? Thanks.

No compatibility issue

 

[DITB]

Anyone in Hong Kong purchased a Chademo adpater? I would like to know how the compatibility is with the Chademo stations around HK? Thanks.

Agree with lx3h - it seems to work fine. The main issues are that some ChaDeMo stations have quite complicated menus, and some plugs need you to close a certain latch.

As for the menu, if you are not very careful to select it the right way, charging won't start. On the plug-and-play scale, many ChaDeMo stations are more pray than play!

As for the latches - most ChaDeMo stations here, you just click the adaptor into the tethered plug from the station. It clicks to latch, and that's it, press start. Those are for instance the newer CLP triple-standard ChaDeMo-CCS-AC3phase, and they work quite well. Other stations (just a few) are unfortunately such that even after the plug latches, you have to find a certain lever that must be pressed for the connection to be made. Otherwise it says connected, but shows an error code (no info about closing the latch).

Finally: Another important issue about just about any ChaDeMo I know in HK is that they are either limited in time or kWh. Seems to be fine if you have a short range EV like a Nissan Leaf, but for a normal range EV like a Tesla, you have to restart it several times. In reality this means that more time is wasted where a car isn't charged - either because the user isn't aware of it (didn't read the longwinded instructions), or simply too lazy (or unable) to return to the car. The THEORY is that after one charging session, you should move your car out of the spot, regardless of how much charge you got - typically called an "emergency top-up option", not a normal charge.

As so often, reality and theory are not very well aligned ...

 

[DITB]

I suggest you have a look at this test I did on the CLP triple-standard charging station (AC-ChaDeMo-CCS) - it's over a year ago now (time flies), but still relevant:

Hong Kong CLP (ABB) triple-standard combo charger tested (Jan 2016)

 

[frangus6]

I suggest you have a look at this test I did on the CLP triple-standard charging station (AC-ChaDeMo-CCS) - it's over a year ago now (time flies), but still relevant:

Hong Kong CLP (ABB) triple-standard combo charger tested (Jan 2016)

Hi DITB, thanks for the informative post. The only question I have is that it seems possible for someone to disconnect the Chademo cable and take your adapter easily. This seems quite risky to me as the adapter is still worth HK 3k+.

 

[DITB]

Hi DITB, thanks for the informative post. The only question I have is that it seems possible for someone to disconnect the Chademo cable and take your adapter easily. This seems quite risky to me as the adapter is still worth HK 3k+.

They can remove the end of your ChaDeMo that is connected to the charging station cable - but they can't unplug it from your car - until you unlock it. They would need your phone, or your fob. So remember to NOT forget your key fob in the car (and don't keep any spare fobs). Handles won't stay out. The best way to test it is to approach the car without the fob nearby, and press one of the front door handles. Yes, it happened lots of times where people forget a fob in the car, cars have even been stolen that way.

Just remember to keep the fob away from the car - and your ChaDeMo adapter is safe.

 

[frangus6]

They can remove the end of your ChaDeMo that is connected to the charging station cable - but they can't unplug it from your car - until you unlock it. They would need your phone, or your fob. So remember to NOT forget your key fob in the car (and don't keep any spare fobs). Handles won't stay out. The best way to test it is to approach the car without the fob nearby, and press one of the front door handles. Yes, it happened lots of times where people forget a fob in the car, cars have even been stolen that way.

Just remember to keep the fob away from the car - and your ChaDeMo adapter is safe.

Thanks for the clarification.