Horrendous brake feel

[jyalpert]

I'll be swapping to the MPP "Street" pads within the next week, will report back if this makes substantial impact.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

I'll be swapping to the MPP "Street" pads within the next week, will report back if this makes substantial impact.

When you do, any chance you could post photos of the pads here with a ruler next to them?

 

[jyalpert]

When you do, any chance you could post photos of the pads here with a ruler next to them?

I'll do you one better and take measurements with a caliper when I get home tonight.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

I'll do you one better and take measurements with a caliper when I get home tonight.

Front and rear if poss.

 

[jyalpert]

Front and rear if poss.

I'm only doing the fronts, sorry. Normally I'd get a matched set of axles, but MPP doesn't even offer any rear brake pad upgrades.

 

[jyalpert]

 

[TeeEmCee]

What is the feel characteristic(s) that is bothering you? You say “non-linear” does that mean they lack initial bite then come on or something else? Is the pedal firm?

If you don’t feel that yourself, no amount of explaining will clarify it. Yes, the brake feel is dreadful (same on every single Model 3 I ever drove) and most everyone here will have no clue what the OP is on about, cause they don’t care about that type of thing.

It’s not bedding and it’s not a service issue, it’s just how the brakes engage. One must either live with them like that or replace them (pads alone would likely be sufficient).

 

[Dangerous Fish]

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Someone has told me these look like Model S/X front pads. Does anyone know if they are the same?

 

[stickman]

If you don’t feel that yourself, no amount of explaining will clarify it. Yes, the brake feel is dreadful (same on every single Model 3 I ever drove) and most everyone here will have no clue what the OP is on about, cause they don’t care about that type of thing.
It’s not bedding and it’s not a service issue, it’s just how the brakes engage. One must either live with them like that or replace them (pads alone would likely be sufficient).

To be clear I know what non-linearity means to me (tracked motorcycles for years including the 1098 with notorious stock pads which bit super hard initially) but was interested in what particularly the op was feeling.
The stock pads on my 3P+ feel fine, on the street and track, all I’ve done is swap fluid. I will upgrade them eventually for something more track suited but there’s no way i’d describe the stock brakes as having horrendous feel. To each his own though.
,

 

[jyalpert]

To be clear I know what non-linearity means to me (tracked motorcycles for years including the 1098 with notorious stock pads which bit super hard initially) but was interested in what particularly the op was feeling.
The stock pads on my 3P+ feel fine, on the street and track, all I’ve done is swap fluid. I will upgrade them eventually for something more track suited but there’s no way i’d describe the stock brakes as having horrendous feel. To each his own though.
,

I think the Performance has different pads as well as calipers and I assume larger rotors?

The stock non-P pads apparently start to fade almost immediately on track and are metal on metal by the end of a track day. So the P must be different.

If you know what cold racing brakes feel like - that's what these are like! Very little friction and quite non linear feel, especially mid stroke just after initial bite, where the pedal hardens up. Pretty poor modulation at that point.

 

[stickman]

I think the Performance has different pads as well as calipers and I assume larger rotors?

The stock non-P pads apparently start to fade almost immediately on track and are metal on metal by the end of a track day. So the P must be different.

If you know what cold racing brakes feel like - that's what these are like! Very little friction and quite non linear feel, especially mid stroke just after initial bite, where the pedal hardens up. Pretty poor modulation at that point.

Yep makes sense.

 

[magdere]

I hardly ever use my brake pedal... do you have your Regen settings configured correctly? If you have it set to Low or your battery is cold (or your state of charge is 90% or higher) your car won't regenerate as strongly which will impact your "braking"... look for power meter and specifically for little dots on the left side, that will show you the amount of potential regeneration... long story short... if you see dots your car will not be slowing down as strongly as it would normally. Dual Motor versions have stronger regenerative braking due to having 2 motors compared to the RWD models

I don’t follow this reasoning? I guess with RWD, the tire wear with regen would be rear-biased, but with adequate rotation, the tire wear should be no different on average, whether brakes or the motor are used to slow the vehicle...or am I missing something? The tires are what stop the vehicle in either case...

So assuming the same speed profile and tire rotation there should be no difference in tire wear.

I mostly use regen braking where possible (set to max), but when I do have to use the brake pedal the feel is awful.

Who are the best-respected 3rd party pad manufacturers for this car? It doesn't look like any of the primary performance manufacturers make pads for it yet.

I have an AWD and did a fast stop on the freeway and it was almost a rear end, they pedal felt like there was less braking and soft as it went down. I ended up turning to the shoulder in fear of not stopping in time. I have never felt brakes on any of my modern cars do that at that speed. My 85D brakes were a night and day difference. My pads should have been seated but i'm going to do some further testing,. Really terrible feel in general and it felt like I could not predict the braking response.

100% agree.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I think the Performance has different pads as well as calipers and I assume larger rotors?

The stock non-P pads apparently start to fade almost immediately on track and are metal on metal by the end of a track day. So the P must be different.

If you know what cold racing brakes feel like - that's what these are like! Very little friction and quite non linear feel, especially mid stroke just after initial bite, where the pedal hardens up. Pretty poor modulation at that point.

Not just that but their initial/cold engagement is quite weak and discomforting. They're just not very good pads.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

If someone could confirm whether the Tesla M3P pads are a unique pattern or the same as another car model (Tesla or not) then it's going to be fairly simple to find out what other options are out there other than the ones we already know about.

 

[magdere]

I have an AWD and did a fast stop on the freeway and it was almost a rear end, they pedal felt like there was less braking and soft as it went down. I ended up turning to the shoulder in fear of not stopping in time. I have never felt brakes on any of my modern cars do that at that speed. My 85D brakes were a night and day difference. My pads should have been seated but i'm going to do some further testing,. Really terrible feel in general and it felt like I could not predict the braking response.

This is the only thing I hate about this car, a couple of minor dislikes that can be fixed via software update in the future but I'm having hard time to believe that the brakes are the way they are. I have posted on Tesla forum a few months back to see if anyone else had the same opinion but most answered with sarcasm. I even took it to Tesla and had a test drive with a technician and he said that all model 3's were similar and there was nothing out of ordinary with my car. I would describe my brakes like most of the complainers , spongy, soft, non linear, air in the lines like performance, anxiety inducing during sudden emergency stops. Planning on changing the brake pads and putting a larger discs from MPP.

 

[EVDRVN]

This is the only thing I hate about this car, a couple of minor dislikes that can be fixed via software update in the future but I'm having hard time to believe that the brakes are the way they are. I have posted on Tesla forum a few months back to see if anyone else had the same opinion but most answered with sarcasm. I even took it to Tesla and had a test drive with a technician and he said that all model 3's were similar and there was nothing out of ordinary with my car. I would describe my brakes like most of the complainers , spongy, soft, non linear, air in the lines like performance, anxiety inducing during sudden emergency stops. Planning on changing the brake pads and putting a larger discs from MPP.

Yep-

 

[TeeEmCee]

I have posted on Tesla forum a few months back to see if anyone else had the same opinion but most answered with sarcasm.

No way!!!

 

[stickman]

This is the only thing I hate about this car, a couple of minor dislikes that can be fixed via software update in the future but I'm having hard time to believe that the brakes are the way they are. I have posted on Tesla forum a few months back to see if anyone else had the same opinion but most answered with sarcasm. I even took it to Tesla and had a test drive with a technician and he said that all model 3's were similar and there was nothing out of ordinary with my car. I would describe my brakes like most of the complainers , spongy, soft, non linear, air in the lines like performance, anxiety inducing during sudden emergency stops. Planning on changing the brake pads and putting a larger discs from MPP.

If they feel spongy and soft why not try bleeding the brakes? It’s not hard and will likely fix at least those two symptoms.

 

[mswlogo]

It's not important for probably 99%+ of people. The only important things are safety considerations. This issue is a matter of feel - it's personal preference. I just don't like how the pedal feels (even though I don't use it that much due to regen).

Most cars have some inherent issue or compromise and these enthusiast forums are generally the best place to find them out, along with opinions and potential solutions. The nice thing is that this particular issue can apparently be fixed for $200 in parts and one hour in my garage!

Why would a racing pad give you more linearity?

I would ask to drive another model 3 (RWD, try AWD for grins too) before I did anything. Changing pads might mask your problem and then possibly complicate service (they will blame your better pads). Figure out if it's the car or you. I find zero braking issues on a Performance AWD (same brakes, "Stealth" flavor). Of course we strive to avoid brakes, but every now and then you do have to use them hard. Regen has ZERO to do with how well your brakes perform.

Also how do you know it's not tires or ABS/Traction control that is working "too hard" to prevent skidding?
Has OP driven a Performance (with larger brakes) for reference.

I will be curious what you think if you change pads. It would be nice if you did a 60-0 Test before and after as well.

 

[jyalpert]

Why would a racing pad give you more linearity?

I would ask to drive another model 3 (RWD, try AWD for grins too) before I did anything. Changing pads might mask your problem and then possibly complicate service (they will blame your better pads). Figure out if it's the car or you. I find zero braking issues on a Performance AWD (same brakes, "Stealth" flavor). Of course we strive to avoid brakes, but every now and then you do have to use them hard. Regen has ZERO to do with how well your brakes perform.

Also how do you know it's not tires or ABS/Traction control that is working "too hard" to prevent skidding?
Has OP driven a Performance (with larger brakes) for reference.

I will be curious what you think if you change pads. It would be nice if you did a 60-0 Test before and after as well.

To be very clear - the brakes work. They don't feel broken. They just suck.

I don't believe it's air in the lines or any major issue. This issue is also present at speeds/grip levels that are far below TCS or ABS engagement. Though I've never driven any other Model 3, including a performance.

Honestly I can't think of what would cause this issue besides shitty OEM pads - I believe the feel just sucks due to poor friction/compound. To be clear, I've felt somewhat similar terrible brake feel on other cars. It's just a weak point of the Model 3, I think.

Pretty sure the current brakes can engage the ABS, so I wouldn't expect any difference in braking distance (which is mostly dependent on tires).

I also don't want racing pads on this car - real race pads barely even work at normal temps. (Here's a video of me making a mistake on cold race brakes - go to 0:42 and you can see me blow through a corner:

). I just want something like a good performance street pad with reasonable cold bite and modulation (different brake compounds can have dramatically different pedal feel). MPP says their "Street" pads are like the Hawk HPS, which is exactly what I want.