Hostility to the transition to EVs?

[Llama.]

Moderator comment - thread originally started in The UK and Ireland sub forum

I know that this is a forum of EV owners so maybe this is a bit of an echo chamber for those of us who like EVs, but I’ve recently become aware of some very strong views from family and social media who sound a bit hostile to the arguments supporting EV ownership.

It’s the usual sort of things: ‘EVs are too expensive to purchase, only rich people can afford them. they cost almost as much to rapid charge as petrol equivalent. Most people don’t have the means to get a Type 2 charger at home, the charging network is poor. Where is all this electricity needed for EVs going to come from? Etc?’

I’m not surprised by these comments. They can be responded to with the facts about EVs.

What has surprised though, is the hostility from some of those making these arguments. I feel like I’m speaking to anti-vaxers or flat-earthers.

its almost as if they feel that we EV owner are elitist do-gooders who have been ‘greenwashed’.

Has anyone else found that some people are seemingly furious with the arguments about the value of switching to EVs?

 

[Jason71]

They aren't wrong the EV transition may make car ownership unaffordable for some who can afford it now. True or not people fear it may be so. Also people fear change generally. Fear is a powerful motivator.

 

[Peteski]

I know what you mean. All very negative and hostile about EVs, yet totally oblivious to all the obvious ICE issues. Irrational Tesla haters are a thing too. They remind me a bit of Apple haters. I think it's a sort of reverse snobbery issue. But I see this a LOT more online than in real life, where most people seem quite fascinated by Teslas, especially younger people and kids love them!

 

[kavyboy]

The transition will happen, in my opinion. Or I may be wrong. But it's not worth arguing over. That just makes people dig in harder.
I was going to get my covid vaccine the other week and the army guy (full fatigues, all that - real 28 Days Later vibe) doing the checkpoint started asking a bunch of questions about the car. He said he used to be "really against them" but now he's considering an EV. It was interesting and refreshing to see at least one person's attitude was changing. I'm sure he's not alone.

 

[Peteski]

The transition will happen, in my opinion.

Absolutely it will!
Both governments and manufacturers have accepted that as a fact. Even Toyota (and your army guy) have done a 180! The question remains how quickly will it actually happen? I suspect quicker than most people think (at least in affluent countries). I think the transition will actually be accelerated by rapidly changing customer demand, despite the vocal opposition discussed here. But legacy manufacturers are still doing their best to drag their heels as much as they dare.

 

[father_of_6]

My coworker was excited to test drive my M3, but her husband considers himself a "gearhead" and won't even get in the car. His primary reason seams to be... he likes to do his own maintenance (oil changes). Even though he very strongly dislikes EVs, he seems to appreciate Elon Musk. It's really strange.

I've also had someone say he'd never give up his gas truck because of the "power"... LOL... I translate that to "noise".

100% certainty that in the near future all vehicles will be BEV. GM says one decade, Volkswagen changed their name to Voltswagen. US Gov't is investing significantly in charging infrastructure. There's *no* going back now. I attribute this all to Tesla.

 

[nightowl]

I occasionally have a look at the comments on sponsored EV posts on Facebook or Twitter and yeah there's a lot of negativity posted about EVs. Beyond the practical issues (charging arrangements, range etc.) and the fear (might catch fire, how will we get all this power, what happens if you drive off with the cable plugged in or over-charge?) it eventually reaches the stage where people are exchanging pictures of lithium mines/copper mines/children mining for cobalt and arguing over how much it affects the planet to make an ICE vehicle vs an EV. Then there are some crazy comments about how the electricity companies have too much control etc.

I went for an EV partly because of the technology and that it seems the next major evolution in transport beyond fossil fuels. I was going to change car so figured I might as well get something good and stick with it for a few years. Being able to charge at home (partly from solar PV), precondition the car, have no engine noise or exhaust fumes and not have to deal with manual gears all appealed to me. It all feels very "optimised" compared to the noise and smell of an ICE.

Is it greener? Initial manufacture: Maybe not. But thinking about the acquisition and distribution of fossil fuel vs electricity, I came to the conclusion that EVs just seems to make sense as we have multiple ways to produce the "fuel" (electricity) and it just goes along the cables that are already there. No need to drill for it, refine it, ship it, distribute it in tankers etc.

Ignoring what powers it and what effect it might have on the world, above all else: I find my Tesla very enjoyable to drive. That's the most important factor really. It works, it accelerates like a rocket if I want it to and it doesn't draw the attention of everyone around me in the process.

It's weird how defensive people get over the use of fossil fuels though - as if they are going to be forced to give it up. I don't think we'll ever get rid of it entirely but the use will decrease significantly. Hopefully as EVs become more common, the prices of them will come down.

I rarely bother responding to the comments unless I have something constructive to say. If people want to be outraged by progress that's up to them.

 

[father_of_6]

Is it greener? Initial manufacture: Maybe not.

I think it's much easier to implement ecologically friendly solutions at the point of manufacture than it is to implement them at each of a few million automobiles. EVs are definitely greener overall.

 

[msm859]

My coworker was excited to test drive my M3, but her husband considers himself a "gearhead" and won't even get in the car. His primary reason seams to be... he likes to do his own maintenance (oil changes). Even though he very strongly dislikes EVs, he seems to appreciate Elon Musk. It's really strange.

I've also had someone say he'd never give up his gas truck because of the "power"... LOL... I translate that to "noise".

100% certainty that in the near future all vehicles will be BEV. GM says one decade, Volkswagen changed their name to Voltswagen. US Gov't is investing significantly in charging infrastructure. There's *no* going back now. I attribute this all to Tesla.

Try hanging out in a Corvette Forum. If a car does not burn gas and if they cannot hear it roar they have no interest. Posed a question if they came out with a hybrid Corvette that was the quickest, fastest, best handling Corvette ever and still got a response that they would not buy it. There is definitely a "group" of species that typically have common traits. They are against vaccines, Covid is nothing, Tesla is bad, EV's are bad, California is bad - and they are typically Trump supporters. I have concluded there truly are 2 species. Home Sapiens and Neanderthals. And along with my X I do own a C7 Corvette and am looking forward to the ERay - hybrid Corvette.

 

[father_of_6]

There is definitely a "group" of species that typically have common traits. They are against vaccines, Covid is nothing, Tesla is bad, EV's are bad, California is bad - and they are typically Trump supporters.

This is not true. You've bundled a bunch of opinions that you're against and then accused "them" (the anti-you's) of all of them.

 

[Cardo]

People fear change. All you have to do is look at the history of the horse and cart to ICE transition. We like to think we’re more civilised after the last 100+ years, however it’s only a thin veneer and we’re still as primal as we’ve ever been.

 

[Llama.]

This is not true. You've bundled a bunch of opinions that you're against and then accused "them" (the anti-you's) of all of them.

Yes Hillary Clinton got in trouble by doing this, calling the other side a ‘basket of deplorables’

But I started this post here as a ‘safe space’ to kick this idea around a bit, so I can understand this framing of things as we explore this. As an American expat hiding in the People’s Republic of Yorkshire It’s quite tempting to go there.

There is something a bit ‘libertarian’ about these fervent arguments against EVs which feels very similar to anti-vaxers or climate change denialists arguments. Where people might argue against the science, but ultimately don’t like being forced to do something that offers a wider public good.

Almost as though their underlying concern isn’t these individual arguments against EVs, it’s that their freedom to choose an ICE car is being taken away from them by ‘the state’.

Sorry if my thread is a bit to serious and political for this forum. I feel like I’ve touched a nerve with some people out there and wanted to check in with you guys here.

Finding about this situation wouldn’t change my mind about buying an EV, but it has really surprised me. I didn’t realise that this is one of those discussions you avoid with family at Christmas to avoid upsetting each other.

Anyway, the sun has come out. I’m off to go charge ‘Gretta’ with solar from my Zappi and sort some recycling.

Llama

 

[Neilio]

I know what you mean. All very negative and hostile about EVs, yet totally oblivious to all the obvious ICE issues. Irrational Tesla haters are a thing too. They remind me a bit of Apple haters. I think it's a sort of reverse snobbery issue. But I see this a LOT more online than in real life, where most people seem quite fascinated by Teslas, especially younger people and kids love them!

Actually I totally get the Tesla apple thing. I'm afraid you're wrong about it being "haters". Owners of both products can be infuriatingly partisan. There is a tendency amongst a small group of people to treat both products not as products from large, profit driven organisations but to believe they mean something. to become "fans" of these corporations who only care about taking your money. It makes conversations with them difficult as they have a blinkered view of the world. They struggle to be objective. I speak as an owner of both a Tesla and numerous apple products too. Thing is I like cars and I love modern technology. The extreme partisan Tesla and Apple fans are difficult to have a conversation about their products with as there is a strong bias.

I don't think this forum is a problem though, there are enough moaning old men (myself included) to provide a balanced view of Tesla

 

[davidmc]

People fear change.

Totally this.

Previous changes:

People like to rent DVDs - blockbuster gone
Everyone needs a landline phone - slowly disappearing
I need my BlackBerry/Nokia tactile keyboard. - touchscreens everywhere.

The only difference with cars is that the oil industry is involved.

My companies garage mechanics hate EVs and blurt out all sorts of FUD. I think the real reason is their jobs could be on the line and are scared, unless they adapt quickly which is very unlikely.

I'm the only one at my company with an EV, but more are getting plug in hybrids at our place and the mechanics won't touch them accept for a tyre change or oil check.

 

[Neilio]

The transition will happen, in my opinion. Or I may be wrong. But it's not worth arguing over. That just makes people dig in harder.
I was going to get my covid vaccine the other week and the army guy (full fatigues, all that - real 28 Days Later vibe) doing the checkpoint started asking a bunch of questions about the car. He said he used to be "really against them" but now he's considering an EV. It was interesting and refreshing to see at least one person's attitude was changing. I'm sure he's not alone.

This is the boat I was in. The thing is, I'm an absolute petrol head. Completely. When I was younger my father took me to the touring cars and I've always been addicted to motorsports. Yes, it is about the noise. There is a visceral thing about going to a car race. The noise and the smell of burnt fuel is intoxicating. This feeling has translated to buying cars for me. I've always liked the noise and vibrations of, say, a TVR.

However I'm aware this isn't sustainable. There will be plenty like me who love a big V8 but realise we just can't go on with our current way of fueling ICE cars. It didn't really take much for me to realise that I could get similar preofrmance to an ICE vehicle and I just had to sacrifice the noise. Do I miss it? Yeah, I'd love to be driving a screaming V8 but the Model3 performance gives me as much power, nearly as good a handling and all it misses is the noise and vibration. Once batteries get lighter one of the other drawbacks of EV performance, the extreme weight, will be gone too. I think you're right. We jsut have to let it happen. Answer questions about charging etc but don't get drawn into arguements

 

[hgmichna]

The resistance is emotional. Ultimately it boils down to fear. Fear of the new, fear of losing what they have.

That makes them seek arguments against electric vehicles (EV), however wrong they may be. They seek potential problems to rationalize why they don't have to deal with an EV.

We know that the only valid argument against EVs is that somebody who does a lot of ultra-long-distance driving will need 5% or 10% more time.

Why a lot? Because, assuming you can charge at home, you save time first by not having to use petrol stations, I guess some 3 to 4 hours per year. If you do a very long holiday drive once a year, you won't even be able to undo that advantage completely.

I fail to see any other serious disadvantage of EVs, but there are many advantages.

 

[Jason71]

People fear change. All you have to do is look at the history of the horse and cart to ICE transition. We like to think we’re more civilised after the last 100+ years, however it’s only a thin veneer and we’re still as primal as we’ve ever been.

Could be worse. At least they aren't asking for a man with a red flag to walk along in front of EV's to warn people its coming. All we have to put up with is a noise generator. So I guess that's progress

 

[Neilio]

The resistance is emotional. Ultimately it boils down to fear. Fear of the new, fear of losing what they have.

That makes them seek arguments against electric vehicles (EV), however wrong they may be. They seek potential problems to rationalize why they don't have to deal with an EV.

We know that the only valid argument against EVs is that somebody who does a lot of ultra-long-distance driving will need 5% or 10% more time.

Why a lot? Because, assuming you can charge at home, you save time first by not having to use petrol stations, I guess some 3 to 4 hours per year. If you do a very long holiday drive once a year, you won't even be able to undo that advantage completely.

I fail to see any other serious disadvantage of EVs, but there are many advantages.

Assuming you can charge from home. Those of us who can't miss out on one of the big advantages of EV, zero time refuelling as you sleep. The main disadvantages of EVs, and lots be honest there are some, are around refuelling. If you don't have home charging it's much more time consuming than an ICE vehicle. It's also much less convenient. There are fewer charging points then petrol stations. Also currently the reliability of a petrol station is significantly better. This will change hopefully but current;y there ARE arguments against EVs. they are just being reduced pretty much daily,

 

[Peteski]

Yeah an EV without home charging would be inconvenient and probably quite frustrating at this point in the transition. Not impossible, but far from ideal. But I'm sure owning an ICE was even more frustrating when they first appeared. Probably not dissimilar to running an hydrogen fuel cell car today i.e. totally impractical!

 

[Peteski]

My coworker was excited to test drive my M3, but her husband considers himself a "gearhead" and won't even get in the car. His primary reason seams to be... he likes to do his own maintenance (oil changes). Even though he very strongly dislikes EVs, he seems to appreciate Elon Musk. It's really strange.

I've also had someone say he'd never give up his gas truck because of the "power"... LOL... I translate that to "noise".

100% certainty that in the near future all vehicles will be BEV. GM says one decade, Volkswagen changed their name to Voltswagen. US Gov't is investing significantly in charging infrastructure. There's *no* going back now. I attribute this all to Tesla.

You would have thought not having to do oil changes at home would be a major plus point. It's hardly the most exciting or rewarding of DIY task! The only incentive to do it yourself is to save some money, but if you don't have to do it at all......