Hot outlet reducing charging speed

[Butane]

Yea, I'm always hesitant to just change to a larger breaker, however it was a 30A outlet with a 20amp breaker, not sure this would have ever been to code in the last 50 years?.... I thought it should be a 30amp breaker as the wire is 10/3 and I was replacing a 10-3 outlet. When we had the panel redone, maybe the guy put in the wrong one, or maybe thats what was there before so he just coppied it.... I imagine it's one continuous run as there is no reason for it to not be, but can't see much in the crawl space due to ducting, insulation etc. Yea the ground wire (4th wire) was in the cable, just not connected to anything, or run into the box (had to pull off some drywall to find it).

Sounds like I should be good to go, so long as the run isn't over 100 feet? It's from one side of the house to the other but we don't have a large home, 1400 sqft...

One more thing, I'm reading that in a crawl space (non permanent stairs or ladder) you can simply run romex, but it has to be 6' away from the entrance hole. This would not be possible as you can't really get to 6 feet away as you can only crawl down the center. Guess that means I'm stuck with THHN and a separate conduit (we have a metal one already but it's for the solar Inverters that backfeed into the panel).

I want to save some cash, but I also like everything to be to code and not burn my house down.

Not familiar with that rule on crawlspaces. I know you are supposed to protect them in attics under certain conditions, and generally a couple pieces of wood, taller than the cable, nailed on either side meets the requirement. I don't think you'll have any issues running cable in a manner similar to what is already down there. I can be worth calling your county/city inspections office. Out in my area, they're pretty friendly and happy to answer questions like this. Even if they force you into a permit, it can still be cheaper to get a DIY permit instead of hiring an electrician.

 

[Glamisduner]

Yea, I'm always hesitant to just change to a larger breaker, however it was a 30A outlet with a 20amp breaker, not sure this would have ever been to code in the last 50 years?.... I thought it should be a 30amp breaker as the wire is 10/3 and I was replacing a 10-3 outlet. When we had the panel redone, maybe the guy put in the wrong one, or maybe thats what was there before so he just coppied it.... I imagine it's one continuous run as there is no reason for it to not be, but can't see much in the crawl space due to ducting, insulation etc. Yea the ground wire (4th wire) was in the cable, just not connected to anything, or run into the box (had to pull off some drywall to find it).

Sounds like I should be good to go, so long as the run isn't over 100 feet? It's from one side of the house to the other but we don't have a large home, 1400 sqft...

One more thing, I'm reading that in a crawl space (non permanent stairs or ladder) you can simply run romex, but it has to be 6' away from the entrance hole. This would not be possible as you can't really get to 6 feet away as you can only crawl down the center. Guess that means I'm stuck with THHN and a separate conduit (we have a metal one already but it's for the solar Inverters that backfeed into the panel).

I want to save some cash, but I also like everything to be to code and not burn my house down.

Sorry to quote myself, but here is the attic I'm working work. I need to run a wire through here, past the whole house fan.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/onuPHG4Q6e1Rfj8v6

 

[Glamisduner]

Not familiar with that rule on crawlspaces. I know you are supposed to protect them in attics under certain conditions, and generally a couple pieces of wood, taller than the cable, nailed on either side meets the requirement. I don't think you'll have any issues running cable in a manner similar to what is already down there. I can be worth calling your county/city inspections office. Out in my area, they're pretty friendly and happy to answer questions like this. Even if they force you into a permit, it can still be cheaper to get a DIY permit instead of hiring an electrician.

Posted a picture, not sure how I would even get a board up there lol. There might be a way to nail some 2x4's down along the run... The opening isn't very large to get up there though.

I'm really not looking forward to going back up there It's been 117 deg lately, so I will have to wait until it is more habitable.

Sounds like I'm probably good to go with the 30 amp breaker, I just won't want to push it. Good to know that the tesla charger will give me a warning though.

 

[Butane]

I won't be removing it until I move, so maybe never. Thanks for looking out
My hardware stays cool.

Edit: Also, what is "industrial". Tesla does not specify the brands you suggest or any brand for that matter. In fact, the bond between the pins of my adapter cable and the sockets of the receptacle is very strong.
If you have actual information/specifications for what is "industrial", please do share. Otherwise, I am taking your reply with a grain of salt.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/US/universalmobileconnector_nema_14-50.pdf Called out by name and PN. The cheap ones are rated to be plugged/unplugged as often as people (are supposed to) clean behind their stove. The industrial one are rated for regular use and unplugging while in use.

I'm sure you'll be fine. I'll admit I went a little paranoid and did things by the book here. Even pulled a permit for my work!

 

[hoang51]

Well the electrician used a 8 AWG wire. He insists it’s fine although the agreed to come check out why it’s getting overheated.

Anything I can say to win my argument that it’s NOT fine over his professional optimism other than point to my issue or the Tesla instructions?

You can hand the Tesla installation printout to your electrician so that he may reconsider, but does not force him to redo the installation as a courtesy. You should have technically provided this information to the electrician before work was to be done to assure optimum installation according to Tesla's requirements.

The only way that may possibly overrule your electrician's installation and force a redo is to see if your local government (e.g. county government) requires a permit to install additional electrical outlets, especially NEMA 14-50, and if so, what building codes does the installation has to conform to. Some places are okay with 8 AWG, some require 6 AWG for certain applications. You'll have to do your due diligence on this part. If you happen to find out your electrician cut corners with your installation, you can negotiate with him his license's worth (i.e., report him of faulty work to the government, opens up for lawsuit) vs redoing according to local government's building code as a complimentary courtesy and a good teaching lesson about local building code free of charge.

 

[hoang51]

I will be extremely annoyed if he asks for more money. I called a few electricians for quotes and told them I wanted a 14-50 installed for my EV. This guy says he’s done a bunch before and gives me the lowest quote of the bunch. I literally picked him BECAUSE of the lowest quote. If he comes back and tells me he wants to charge me more, it pretty much feels like a bait and switch because depending on how much extra, i could’ve went with someone else instead.

I guess i have no one else to blame but myself for being a cheapskate

See my earlier post, probably just above this one. Let's say all his installation is according to local code. If that's the case, the only thing that stands out from this event is that you didn't do you due diligence with regards to installing a charge outlet according to Tesla's specifications.

You don't have to guess who to blame. You need to do your due diligence and ultimately, the burden falls on you. Cheapskate is barely the reason to blame. You need to do your homework. Knowledge is power.

Now let's say you did your due diligence on his install, you might have a shot at redemption.

 

[brkaus]

@Jpjpjp I read the thread, may have missed it, but did you try another 14-50 elsewhere to rule out cord problems? And does the outlet or plug feel hot?

I have a Gen1 EVSE and there is some heat in the box but no significant heat on the plug or outlet when I am charging at 40a.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Yea, I'm always hesitant to just change to a larger breaker, however it was a 30A outlet with a 20amp breaker, not sure this would have ever been to code in the last 50 years?

That's actually a legit configuration, it's the other way around that's the issue. The breaker limits the current, the receptacle doesn't. So as long as you have a breaker that's smaller limiting the total current you aren't going to burn things down (assuming the wire is also of a minimum gauge for the the 20A at whatever run length it is).

It isn't normally done that way because the higher rated receptacle tends to cost more but if it's what was in hand or the installer got a smoking deal on a 30A receptacle? No problem.

EDIT: Well it could be something of an issue if somebody just uses the receptacle to try judge what the outlet will allow and plugs in a device that's designed to draw more than the 16A that a 20A breaker allows. However that'll just cause the breaker to throw and then the person should clue in when they go check the panel to reset the breaker.

 

[Jpjpjp]

You can hand the Tesla installation printout to your electrician so that he may reconsider, but does not force him to redo the installation as a courtesy. You should have technically provided this information to the electrician before work was to be done to assure optimum installation according to Tesla's requirements.

The only way that may possibly overrule your electrician's installation and force a redo is to see if your local government (e.g. county government) requires a permit to install additional electrical outlets, especially NEMA 14-50, and if so, what building codes does the installation has to conform to. Some places are okay with 8 AWG, some require 6 AWG for certain applications. You'll have to do your due diligence on this part. If you happen to find out your electrician cut corners with your installation, you can negotiate with him his license's worth (i.e., report him of faulty work to the government, opens up for lawsuit) vs redoing according to local government's building code as a complimentary courtesy and a good teaching lesson about local building code free of charge.

For what it’s worth, I did attempt to give him the printout but he declined saying he’s done many of these. I took his word

 

[Jpjpjp]

@Jpjpjp I read the thread, may have missed it, but did you try another 14-50 elsewhere to rule out cord problems? And does the outlet or plug feel hot?

I have a Gen1 EVSE and there is some heat in the box but no significant heat on the plug or outlet when I am charging at 40a.

I did not test the cord anywhere else. I don’t know anyone near me where I could test it on short notice. The outlet did get hot, but it was not scoldng hot. Like a bowl of soup hot. That said I only touched it after my model 3 dropped down to 16A of charging due to heat, so it may have cooled off a bit. I’m not sure.

 

[mongo]

The mobile connector is limiting the current, not the Model 3. If you were to install a HPWC on a 60A circuit then you could charge at the full 48A.

Pedantic warning....
The mobile connector sends a signal to the 3 that says what the maximum allowable current is. The 3's charger then draws up to that amount of current. The connector itself has no current limiting ability beyond opening the circuit when there is a fault or the car is disconnected.

Also, in general, severly long or undersized wire would show up as a supply voltage drop/ warning. Plug heating is specific to the outlet/wire connections.

 

[brkaus]

I did not test the cord anywhere else. I don’t know anyone near me where I could test it on short notice. The outlet did get hot, but it was not scoldng hot. Like a bowl of soup hot. That said I only touched it after my model 3 dropped down to 16A of charging due to heat, so it may have cooled off a bit. I’m not sure.

Some of the Tesla service and galleries have 14-50 outlets. If you could drop by one of those.

If it is that hot, I don't think it is the wire. I think it is the wire connection to the outlet or a bad outlet. I do not like the choice of wire, It should be 6ga. But I don't feel the symptoms match 8ga wire. Esp given the Gen2 EVSE charges at 32a.

Edit to add: Another option - Do you know anyone with a Model 3 and you could borrow their EVSE? Or borrow from the service center.

 

[Glamisduner]

According to this chart, 8awg may be plenty.

https://www.cerrowire.com/files/file/voltagedrop.pdf

I would shut off the breaker, remove the outlet, and tension the terminals.

Also might not be a bad idea to check the tension on the terminals at the breaker (use the master shutoff first so you don't kill yourself)

How long is your run? If your only expecting under a 40 amp load (Gen 2 EVSE maxes at 32?) it looks like 8awg is fine.

 

[mongo]

Also check the terminals on the 14-50 adapter for the UMC. Could be an issue there...

 

[Jpjpjp]

The wire runs very short. He said that’s the reason he used an 8 awg. The circuit panel is literally on the other side of the wall. He would’ve ran a 6 if it was longer than 25 feet.

He’s saying the reason it went hot yesterday is because it was an extremely hot day in LA yesterday (110 degrees) and the sun directly hits my circuit panel which makes the whole panel extra hot. It was a bit less hot and sunny today and I couldn’t replicate the issue today so his recommendation is plausible I guess. I have no idea. He also said the stress from running the AC and all other things exacerbates the heat issue within the panel. Told me changing to a 6 AWG wire won’t make a difference but I asked him to change it out anyway so I can have peace of mind and he agreed to do it.

 

[Runt8]

The wire runs very short. He said that’s the reason he used an 8 awg. The circuit panel is literally on the other side of the wall. He would’ve ran a 6 if it was longer than 25 feet.

He’s saying the reason it went hot yesterday is because it was an extremely hot day in LA yesterday (110 degrees) and the sun directly hits my circuit panel which makes the whole panel extra hot. It was a bit less hot and sunny today and I couldn’t replicate the issue today so his recommendation is plausible I guess. I have no idea. He also said the stress from running the AC and all other things exacerbates the heat issue within the panel. Told me changing to a 6 AWG wire won’t make a difference but I asked him to change it out anyway so I can have peace of mind and he agreed to do it.

Sounds like you have a good electrician - not sure I buy the panel being hot excuse but at least he switched it out.

 

[brkaus]

The wire runs very short. He said that’s the reason he used an 8 awg. The circuit panel is literally on the other side of the wall. He would’ve ran a 6 if it was longer than 25 feet.

He’s saying the reason it went hot yesterday is because it was an extremely hot day in LA yesterday (110 degrees) and the sun directly hits my circuit panel which makes the whole panel extra hot. It was a bit less hot and sunny today and I couldn’t replicate the issue today so his recommendation is plausible I guess. I have no idea. He also said the stress from running the AC and all other things exacerbates the heat issue within the panel. Told me changing to a 6 AWG wire won’t make a difference but I asked him to change it out anyway so I can have peace of mind and he agreed to do it.

Trying to picture. The panel is on the outside, in the sun. The outlet is inside, on the opposite side of the panel wall?

Certainly could be some heat transmitted, and into a garage that is at outside temps...

I have no idea what temp limit Tesla would have set on the plug. I do know the Gen2 EVSE has more thermal sensors.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Trying to picture. The panel is on the outside, in the sun. The outlet is inside, on the opposite side of the panel wall?

Certainly could be some heat transmitted, and into a garage that is at outside temps...

Copper is a very good conductor of heat. Still not sure I buy this scenario even with a short piece of relatively thick wire but maybe with the wall having been breeched at this point? Or maybe there was a communication about specifically how much heat different there was? *shrug*

 

[Uncle Paul]

I had an electrician wire my 50 amp circuit. It ran so hot I could not hold my hand on the metal box inside the garage.

He admitted that he did not have a pro grade receptical on his truck, so stopped at Home Depot and picked one up.

Turned out to be a cheap, homeowner grade receptical and the wires arched. He replaced it with a high quality one, and it now runs cool as can be.

It also showed up the worse during extremely hot days. On cold days it seemed OK.

Upon examination of the removed receptical you could see the damage from the current.

 

[NickFie]

I will be extremely annoyed if he asks for more money. I called a few electricians for quotes and told them I wanted a 14-50 installed for my EV. This guy says he’s done a bunch before and gives me the lowest quote of the bunch. I literally picked him BECAUSE of the lowest quote. If he comes back and tells me he wants to charge me more, it pretty much feels like a bait and switch because depending on how much extra, i could’ve went with someone else instead.

I guess i have no one else to blame but myself for being a cheapskate

Looks like you have three options:

1. Compel the electrician to make things right at no additional charge. I think this is unwise, they're losing money and will likely do a poor job. You're gambling safety, charge rate and potential home inspection during some future sale. The electrician realizes they've already lost you as a future customer, thus has no reason to care.

2. Call back the electrician, pay an upcharge for proper gauge wire, likely get a decent job. Make a note to never use them again.

3. Call one of the higher bidders, explain your mistake and pay them to make it right. If they do well, you know which electrician to rely on for future work. They'll probably give you a reasonable charge since you're admitting poor judgement and seeking a safe, compliant installation.

When someone comes to work on our house, I ensure alignment. We both want the job done well - the contractor for their pride and reputation, my wife and I because we'll live with the results for years. I explain that I don't want them to be financially punished for doing a good job. If there are unexpected problems once the wall is opened, or we agree on a better way to do the job, or extend the scope then I WANT them to tell me the additional cost so they can still make a living delivering quality that satisfies both of us. Things go well, and we've had compliments on a lot of the work.

A friend recommended an electrician when I was looking to install HPWC last year. It became clear he was low-budget, hadn't installed HPWC before and was reluctant to pull a permit in a Township that is very strict. We agreed he wasn't the right one for the job. Then used a Tesla-listed electrician. Ended up at about same cost as the low-budget, low-compliance option. Very professional installation that surpassed everyone's expectations - my wife's, mine and the electrician's. Sailed smoothly through permit and inspection.

Recently, my neighbor complained he couldn't find a decent electrician to install his generator. I checked with my electrician to verify he would be interested in the job, then provided his contact information to my neighbor. Things went very well. I know which electrician to call if I need one again.